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	<title>Comments on: On the Impossibility of Limited Government</title>
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	<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: Charles R. Kiss</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-806271</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles R. Kiss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Oct 2011 05:07:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-806271</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The image of the founding fathers is troubling.  They were surely ahead of their time, but in terms of modern society, they might as well be cave people.  Nostalgia for the past is almost always a sign an individual is lost.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The image of the founding fathers is troubling.  They were surely ahead of their time, but in terms of modern society, they might as well be cave people.  Nostalgia for the past is almost always a sign an individual is lost.</p>
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		<title>By: Patri Friedman</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-399899</link>
		<dc:creator>Patri Friedman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 11:44:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-399899</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole thing reads like a big argument for my seasteading proposals.  But I am probably biased :).

Seriously, though.  It&#039;s the best chance we all have for experimenting with smaller governments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole thing reads like a big argument for my seasteading proposals.  But I am probably biased <img src='http://archive.mises.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>Seriously, though.  It&#8217;s the best chance we all have for experimenting with smaller governments.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Stoutenburg</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-388357</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Stoutenburg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:45:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-388357</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Having an actuarial background and working for a large insurance company, I have long been intrigued with the idea of insurance companies providing security.  I believe that the arrangements could work.  There are two main factors (in addition to throwing off the yoke of oppressive government) that must be worked out:

1) The public greatly mistrusts insurance companies.  How would they be convinced to accept insurance company services for government?  [Though I have to wonder why they trust government more than insurance companies...]

2) Sadly, much of the mistrust is well-placed.  Insurance companies enjoy many advantages through regulations, barriers to entry, tax laws and so forth.  While the institutions of insurance require massive assets, I&#039;m not convinced that individual companies must be so gigantic.  There are markets for sharing risk, and insurance industries fight their development for fear of losing dominance.  While insurance companies do compete among each, the level of innovation in a free market would drastically change the industry.

In short, the marketplace could provide the services outlined in this article.  But the current insurance industry would probably drastically change if it was to adapt to an unfettered market.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Having an actuarial background and working for a large insurance company, I have long been intrigued with the idea of insurance companies providing security.  I believe that the arrangements could work.  There are two main factors (in addition to throwing off the yoke of oppressive government) that must be worked out:</p>
<p>1) The public greatly mistrusts insurance companies.  How would they be convinced to accept insurance company services for government?  [Though I have to wonder why they trust government more than insurance companies...]</p>
<p>2) Sadly, much of the mistrust is well-placed.  Insurance companies enjoy many advantages through regulations, barriers to entry, tax laws and so forth.  While the institutions of insurance require massive assets, I&#8217;m not convinced that individual companies must be so gigantic.  There are markets for sharing risk, and insurance industries fight their development for fear of losing dominance.  While insurance companies do compete among each, the level of innovation in a free market would drastically change the industry.</p>
<p>In short, the marketplace could provide the services outlined in this article.  But the current insurance industry would probably drastically change if it was to adapt to an unfettered market.</p>
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		<title>By: nicholas gray</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-379448</link>
		<dc:creator>nicholas gray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 19:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-379448</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TLWP SAM-
A monopolistic landholder is one person, but I have never heard of a one-person state! A state needs subjects to tax and regulate, hence states are collective. This is why Australia&#039;s major seceder, Prince Leonard of Hutt River Province, calls himself a prince- he has only his family and no taxable subjects. Also states promise to provide things &#039;to&#039; or &#039;for&#039; their subjects, like roads, especially if they&#039;ve had promisefests (a.k.a. elections) and want to keep some of their promises. Self-Monarchs don&#039;t need to do that.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TLWP SAM-<br />
A monopolistic landholder is one person, but I have never heard of a one-person state! A state needs subjects to tax and regulate, hence states are collective. This is why Australia&#8217;s major seceder, Prince Leonard of Hutt River Province, calls himself a prince- he has only his family and no taxable subjects. Also states promise to provide things &#8216;to&#8217; or &#8216;for&#8217; their subjects, like roads, especially if they&#8217;ve had promisefests (a.k.a. elections) and want to keep some of their promises. Self-Monarchs don&#8217;t need to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-379442</link>
		<dc:creator>P.M.Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-379442</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Feudalism &lt;I&gt;wasn&#039;t&lt;/I&gt; that bad, it&#039;s just that when people hear the term they think of either its late stages when it had been co-opted and parasitised by centralists or of the even later things the French Revolution called &quot;feudal&quot; which were privileges the absolutists had used to &lt;I&gt;buy out&lt;/I&gt; the feudalists. But Hoppe is wrong about feudalism himself; it was &lt;I&gt;not&lt;/I&gt; a refinement of family and clan based approaches but something that superseded them (see Francois Ganshof&#039;s work, and maybe Pirenne&#039;s). Family capture occurred later, and was the early stage of what led to centralist capture. And, of course, &quot;free&quot; towns weren&#039;t part of feudalism but emerged within its later stages, as part of a similar set of trade offs with centralists and magnates setting them up, as much as anything to reduce the independendence of lesser aristocrats and get cash revenue sources, and then - when conditions were right - losing control of them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feudalism <i>wasn&#8217;t</i> that bad, it&#8217;s just that when people hear the term they think of either its late stages when it had been co-opted and parasitised by centralists or of the even later things the French Revolution called &#8220;feudal&#8221; which were privileges the absolutists had used to <i>buy out</i> the feudalists. But Hoppe is wrong about feudalism himself; it was <i>not</i> a refinement of family and clan based approaches but something that superseded them (see Francois Ganshof&#8217;s work, and maybe Pirenne&#8217;s). Family capture occurred later, and was the early stage of what led to centralist capture. And, of course, &#8220;free&#8221; towns weren&#8217;t part of feudalism but emerged within its later stages, as part of a similar set of trade offs with centralists and magnates setting them up, as much as anything to reduce the independendence of lesser aristocrats and get cash revenue sources, and then &#8211; when conditions were right &#8211; losing control of them.</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Mann</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-378219</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Mann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 16:13:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-378219</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I had not heard of the &quot;free town&quot;, but I was aware of the Free State Project. The problem is that neither project is dedicated to eliminating the state, but rather just restoring a minarchy. And we already know how that works. And again, we can&#039;t have a stateless territory unless EVERYONE in said territory is on the same page.
These areas may provide a more fertile starting ground, but I think the federal government (eg Waco) will be the real obstacle, so I don&#039;t think it really matters. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had not heard of the &#8220;free town&#8221;, but I was aware of the Free State Project. The problem is that neither project is dedicated to eliminating the state, but rather just restoring a minarchy. And we already know how that works. And again, we can&#8217;t have a stateless territory unless EVERYONE in said territory is on the same page.<br />
These areas may provide a more fertile starting ground, but I think the federal government (eg Waco) will be the real obstacle, so I don&#8217;t think it really matters. </p>
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		<title>By: Brainpolice</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377808</link>
		<dc:creator>Brainpolice</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 10:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377808</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;Hoppe&#039;s idea that feudalism was not really feudalism or wasn&#039;t that bad is sheer nonsense.&quot;

Agreed. He appears to romanticize it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Hoppe&#8217;s idea that feudalism was not really feudalism or wasn&#8217;t that bad is sheer nonsense.&#8221;</p>
<p>Agreed. He appears to romanticize it.</p>
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		<title>By: FTP</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377773</link>
		<dc:creator>FTP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 09:49:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377773</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Fred Mann,

Have you heard of the Free Town Project in the town of Grafton, New Hampshire?

Grafton has one police officer (who is very kind and won&#039;t bug you if you don&#039;t have a driver&#039;s license), a voluntary fire department, and no zoning laws.

http://freetownproject.com/Finding_the_Free_Town.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred Mann,</p>
<p>Have you heard of the Free Town Project in the town of Grafton, New Hampshire?</p>
<p>Grafton has one police officer (who is very kind and won&#8217;t bug you if you don&#8217;t have a driver&#8217;s license), a voluntary fire department, and no zoning laws.</p>
<p><a href="http://freetownproject.com/Finding_the_Free_Town.html" rel="nofollow">http://freetownproject.com/Finding_the_Free_Town.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: unbeliever</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377752</link>
		<dc:creator>unbeliever</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[
Hoppe&#039;s idea that feudalism was not really feudalism or wasn&#039;t that bad is sheer nonsense.

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoppe&#8217;s idea that feudalism was not really feudalism or wasn&#8217;t that bad is sheer nonsense.</p>
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		<title>By: darjen</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377743</link>
		<dc:creator>darjen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 08:40:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377743</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[NM, they would most likely have to bring in their arbiters and compromise on a solution. Sure it&#039;s possible they could come to arms and attempt to use force on each other. But those situations would be rare, as it is not in their economic interest.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>NM, they would most likely have to bring in their arbiters and compromise on a solution. Sure it&#8217;s possible they could come to arms and attempt to use force on each other. But those situations would be rare, as it is not in their economic interest.</p>
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		<title>By: NM</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377658</link>
		<dc:creator>NM</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 07:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377658</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Prof. Hoppe,

An issue that I cannot resolve in my head - you say:

&quot;insurers will be prevented from engaging in any form of external aggression because any aggression is costly and requires higher insurance premiums, implying the loss of clients to other, nonaggressive competitors.&quot;

How can you guarantee this? What if the two insurers (the plaintiff&#039;s and the defendant&#039;s) cannot agree? Who will enforce this judgment? ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Prof. Hoppe,</p>
<p>An issue that I cannot resolve in my head &#8211; you say:</p>
<p>&#8220;insurers will be prevented from engaging in any form of external aggression because any aggression is costly and requires higher insurance premiums, implying the loss of clients to other, nonaggressive competitors.&#8221;</p>
<p>How can you guarantee this? What if the two insurers (the plaintiff&#8217;s and the defendant&#8217;s) cannot agree? Who will enforce this judgment? </p>
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		<title>By: Ernie Hopkins</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-377149</link>
		<dc:creator>Ernie Hopkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 02:46:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-377149</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent Piece! We share the same conclusions in many areas. Add me to your friends and allies list!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent Piece! We share the same conclusions in many areas. Add me to your friends and allies list!</p>
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		<title>By: Jake</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-376858</link>
		<dc:creator>Jake</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:58:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-376858</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great article. Every libertarian should understand that when it comes to states, smaller is better. I find it interesting that the people behind the NWO want all the worlds states reduced to one gigantic state, while HHH one of our greatest theorists argues for the exact opposite.

He&#039;s also right about the moral and intellectual decay of our society, nothing but a severe wake up call in the form of a police state and a collapsed economy will wake the masses out of their slumber. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article. Every libertarian should understand that when it comes to states, smaller is better. I find it interesting that the people behind the NWO want all the worlds states reduced to one gigantic state, while HHH one of our greatest theorists argues for the exact opposite.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s also right about the moral and intellectual decay of our society, nothing but a severe wake up call in the form of a police state and a collapsed economy will wake the masses out of their slumber. </p>
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		<title>By: Duh!</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-376524</link>
		<dc:creator>Duh!</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 22:29:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-376524</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To Fred Mann. New Hampshire]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To Fred Mann. New Hampshire</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Mann</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-376319</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Mann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-376319</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think the most viable method for brining about a stateless society would involve purchasing a large patch of uninhabited rural land with no public roads or buildings, and then importing like-minded people to the area. This way, there is no need to convince locals to join your cause. If even one local were to resist under Hoppe&#039;s suggested method of secession, then the resistor&#039;s rights would have to be violated (good PR for the state) or the project would have to be abandoned.
The question remains ... how many people are needed? Well, I don&#039;t think we need to set up a fully-functioning society with a vast devision of labor at the outset. We merely need to acquire and defend a piece of land (the larger the better) and let the population grow from there.  At first, we could commute to regular jobs until opportunities arise within the stateless area.
Of course, as the Ron Paul campaign showed, there may be more like-minded people than we think. Obviously, these people were constitutionalists (the REAL utopians), but still, it&#039;s encouraging. Best of all, this project could begin immediately!! And frankly, I&#039;m ready. Who&#039;s with me? 
As an aside,  It might be a nice PR twist to write a &quot;Declaration of Independence&quot; to announce the secession. People have been brainwashed to love the Declaration, so we might as well use that to our advantage...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the most viable method for brining about a stateless society would involve purchasing a large patch of uninhabited rural land with no public roads or buildings, and then importing like-minded people to the area. This way, there is no need to convince locals to join your cause. If even one local were to resist under Hoppe&#8217;s suggested method of secession, then the resistor&#8217;s rights would have to be violated (good PR for the state) or the project would have to be abandoned.<br />
The question remains &#8230; how many people are needed? Well, I don&#8217;t think we need to set up a fully-functioning society with a vast devision of labor at the outset. We merely need to acquire and defend a piece of land (the larger the better) and let the population grow from there.  At first, we could commute to regular jobs until opportunities arise within the stateless area.<br />
Of course, as the Ron Paul campaign showed, there may be more like-minded people than we think. Obviously, these people were constitutionalists (the REAL utopians), but still, it&#8217;s encouraging. Best of all, this project could begin immediately!! And frankly, I&#8217;m ready. Who&#8217;s with me?<br />
As an aside,  It might be a nice PR twist to write a &#8220;Declaration of Independence&#8221; to announce the secession. People have been brainwashed to love the Declaration, so we might as well use that to our advantage&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: DS</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-376087</link>
		<dc:creator>DS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 19:00:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-376087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. 

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. 

The real problem, of course, is that the constitution is so vaguely worded that it&#039;s words can be twisted to mean almost anything - including becoming a giant monstrosity that few of the founders would recognize or endorse (maybe with the exception of Hamilton and Morris). 
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Amendment IX</p>
<p>The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people. </p>
<p>Amendment X</p>
<p>The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people. </p>
<p>The real problem, of course, is that the constitution is so vaguely worded that it&#8217;s words can be twisted to mean almost anything &#8211; including becoming a giant monstrosity that few of the founders would recognize or endorse (maybe with the exception of Hamilton and Morris). </p>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-375753</link>
		<dc:creator>P.M.Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:19:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-375753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[TLWP Sam wrote &quot;How would a private land owner &lt;I&gt;not&lt;/I&gt; meet this definition? How would you distinguish a rental payment and a tax?&quot;

This is actually a rather subtle point. There isn&#039;t actually any distinction in the economics of it if you focus solely on the present, where payments are made, though there often is in the forms and legalities. The difference comes in what is carried forward from earlier.

Say you rent a car; the car was made or bought earlier by the person you rent it from. The rent relates to creating that resource. If a government taxes that car on a continuing basis rather than just on initial purchase, the pattern of payments is pretty much the same but it&#039;s not going towards creating the resource, it&#039;s paying off the government so it won&#039;t stop you having the resource. However, in the present, both forms of payment connect to accessing that resource - so if you just focus there you can only tell the difference from what the payment is called and who gets it. This is ad hoc and can be disguised (suppose the car owner had to pay the tax? a renter would have the payments hidden in the rent, called rent and paid over to the owner - and it would be hidden even more if the tax had been on initial purchase).

Similarly, the rents formerly paid by people in Canada&#039;s Prince Edward Island, say, worked pretty much like land tax, only they weren&#039;t paying off a government to stop it interfering with people who were living there all along, they were paying off proprietors for their past assistance in getting people settled there. Even for people born there, they wouldn&#039;t have been there if their ancestors hadn&#039;t been settled there by others. It so happens that that is a special case, where the proprietors had a windfall gain; they didn&#039;t have to do as much work settling people as expected, because there were a whole lot of Loyalist refugees driven out by the American War of Independence who needed new homes and livelihoods. Still, that was force imposed by the rebels, not by the proprietors. As far as the proprietors were concerned it was matched by the risk they took (suppose they hadn&#039;t been able to find settlers, or if settlers had expropriated them as happened to William Penn in Pennsylvania?). Later, the PEI proprietors were bought out with funds obtained from a bonds issue, which shifted the burden from PEI rents to the Canadian tax base.

There was indeed an injustice to the islanders, that they had to pay rent, and later to all Canadian taxpayers that they had to buy it out. Only, the injustice wasn&#039;t done by the proprietors, it was done by the American rebels who exiled the Loyalists without compensation (breaking the treaty, or more precisely failing and refusing to put it into effect, which was why Britain was not obliged to stop impressing US sailors or to evacuate all posts and so on, until a later treaty superseded that).

But the forms and legalities can be confusing. Sometimes you get a land tax disguised by calling it a quitrent. Only, a real quitrent is paying former users to stop using the land in former ways, say to stop them grazing cattle there so farmers can plant crops instead. Morally, the amount owing corresponds to the opportunity cost, what the former users would have got from grazing the cattle (net). Strictly speaking, if the quitrent is not paid the remedy ought to be grazing cattle on the crops, not eviction let alone the court proceedings, criminal penalties, fines and asset seizures that governments do. So when a government does quitrent, it never was a former user, the sanctions are far greater, and on top of that the amount levied is whatever the government thinks fit. All of that comes from the government&#039;s monopoly of force; they can threaten, enforce and charge more heavily than owners who have to compete for renters in a market, so they can&#039;t make windfall gains above that (even in PEI, since tenants could always go to Ontario, say). It&#039;s not really a quitrent at all, just disguised as that to make it easier to introduce. The government effectively expropriates genuine former owner/users with no compensation or inadequate and time limited compensation, getting no objections from the payers who are used to paying, then gradually  changes the rules on the payers. The government benefits from the principle of &quot;an old tax is a good tax&quot;, because it doesn&#039;t have to break in the payers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TLWP Sam wrote &#8220;How would a private land owner <i>not</i> meet this definition? How would you distinguish a rental payment and a tax?&#8221;</p>
<p>This is actually a rather subtle point. There isn&#8217;t actually any distinction in the economics of it if you focus solely on the present, where payments are made, though there often is in the forms and legalities. The difference comes in what is carried forward from earlier.</p>
<p>Say you rent a car; the car was made or bought earlier by the person you rent it from. The rent relates to creating that resource. If a government taxes that car on a continuing basis rather than just on initial purchase, the pattern of payments is pretty much the same but it&#8217;s not going towards creating the resource, it&#8217;s paying off the government so it won&#8217;t stop you having the resource. However, in the present, both forms of payment connect to accessing that resource &#8211; so if you just focus there you can only tell the difference from what the payment is called and who gets it. This is ad hoc and can be disguised (suppose the car owner had to pay the tax? a renter would have the payments hidden in the rent, called rent and paid over to the owner &#8211; and it would be hidden even more if the tax had been on initial purchase).</p>
<p>Similarly, the rents formerly paid by people in Canada&#8217;s Prince Edward Island, say, worked pretty much like land tax, only they weren&#8217;t paying off a government to stop it interfering with people who were living there all along, they were paying off proprietors for their past assistance in getting people settled there. Even for people born there, they wouldn&#8217;t have been there if their ancestors hadn&#8217;t been settled there by others. It so happens that that is a special case, where the proprietors had a windfall gain; they didn&#8217;t have to do as much work settling people as expected, because there were a whole lot of Loyalist refugees driven out by the American War of Independence who needed new homes and livelihoods. Still, that was force imposed by the rebels, not by the proprietors. As far as the proprietors were concerned it was matched by the risk they took (suppose they hadn&#8217;t been able to find settlers, or if settlers had expropriated them as happened to William Penn in Pennsylvania?). Later, the PEI proprietors were bought out with funds obtained from a bonds issue, which shifted the burden from PEI rents to the Canadian tax base.</p>
<p>There was indeed an injustice to the islanders, that they had to pay rent, and later to all Canadian taxpayers that they had to buy it out. Only, the injustice wasn&#8217;t done by the proprietors, it was done by the American rebels who exiled the Loyalists without compensation (breaking the treaty, or more precisely failing and refusing to put it into effect, which was why Britain was not obliged to stop impressing US sailors or to evacuate all posts and so on, until a later treaty superseded that).</p>
<p>But the forms and legalities can be confusing. Sometimes you get a land tax disguised by calling it a quitrent. Only, a real quitrent is paying former users to stop using the land in former ways, say to stop them grazing cattle there so farmers can plant crops instead. Morally, the amount owing corresponds to the opportunity cost, what the former users would have got from grazing the cattle (net). Strictly speaking, if the quitrent is not paid the remedy ought to be grazing cattle on the crops, not eviction let alone the court proceedings, criminal penalties, fines and asset seizures that governments do. So when a government does quitrent, it never was a former user, the sanctions are far greater, and on top of that the amount levied is whatever the government thinks fit. All of that comes from the government&#8217;s monopoly of force; they can threaten, enforce and charge more heavily than owners who have to compete for renters in a market, so they can&#8217;t make windfall gains above that (even in PEI, since tenants could always go to Ontario, say). It&#8217;s not really a quitrent at all, just disguised as that to make it easier to introduce. The government effectively expropriates genuine former owner/users with no compensation or inadequate and time limited compensation, getting no objections from the payers who are used to paying, then gradually  changes the rules on the payers. The government benefits from the principle of &#8220;an old tax is a good tax&#8221;, because it doesn&#8217;t have to break in the payers.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Steph</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-375694</link>
		<dc:creator>Steph</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:43:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-375694</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sam,
According to the writings of Madison and Jefferson I believe that the Constitution should be interpreted as it was written and ratified.  Furthermore it was written for the understanding of the common man, not the most educated lawyers.  This notion of making up things and stretching meanings to fit any scenario I do not believe would pass muster in any contract signed in the real world.  If it did then what would be the point of contracts?  I would finish, also based on the writings of Jefferson, with the idea that if we were to err in the interpretation of the Constitution that we should err on the side of State&#039;s rights and liberty, not the Federal Government]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sam,<br />
According to the writings of Madison and Jefferson I believe that the Constitution should be interpreted as it was written and ratified.  Furthermore it was written for the understanding of the common man, not the most educated lawyers.  This notion of making up things and stretching meanings to fit any scenario I do not believe would pass muster in any contract signed in the real world.  If it did then what would be the point of contracts?  I would finish, also based on the writings of Jefferson, with the idea that if we were to err in the interpretation of the Constitution that we should err on the side of State&#8217;s rights and liberty, not the Federal Government</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: TLWP Sam</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-375657</link>
		<dc:creator>TLWP Sam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 14:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-375657</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;A state, in accordance with generally accepted terminology, is defined as a compulsory territorial monopolist of law and order (an ultimate decision maker)&quot;

How would a private land owner &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; meet this definition?  How would you distinguish a rental payment and a tax?

P.S. Please do elaborate on how people are violating the Constition DS.  Are you presuming that people and the Supreme Court are supposed to be interpreting the Constitution in a Libertarian light?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;A state, in accordance with generally accepted terminology, is defined as a compulsory territorial monopolist of law and order (an ultimate decision maker)&#8221;</p>
<p>How would a private land owner <i>not</i> meet this definition?  How would you distinguish a rental payment and a tax?</p>
<p>P.S. Please do elaborate on how people are violating the Constition DS.  Are you presuming that people and the Supreme Court are supposed to be interpreting the Constitution in a Libertarian light?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: DS</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/8235/on-the-impossibility-of-limited-government/comment-page-1/#comment-375564</link>
		<dc:creator>DS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/008235.asp#comment-375564</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The biggest flaw in the constitution is that if the politicians, judges, bureaucrats and the people that elect them decide to simply ignore any part of the constitution, then it is as if that portion never existed. There is no recourse.

Just look at the 9th and 10th amendments - these invalidate almost the entire workforce of Washington DC, yet are treated as if they do not exist any longer. Try bringing a case to the Supreme Court on the grounds that it violates the 9th or 10th amendment. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The biggest flaw in the constitution is that if the politicians, judges, bureaucrats and the people that elect them decide to simply ignore any part of the constitution, then it is as if that portion never existed. There is no recourse.</p>
<p>Just look at the 9th and 10th amendments &#8211; these invalidate almost the entire workforce of Washington DC, yet are treated as if they do not exist any longer. Try bringing a case to the Supreme Court on the grounds that it violates the 9th or 10th amendment. </p>
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