We can concentrate on this one area if you wish.

In my view, the argument concerning non-violent morality is unsupported. Self-ownership is not the right to control one’s body, it ** IS ** the control of one’s body.

But whether one controls something doesn’t mean one has the right to any sort of action with the object. I.e. I might control (or own) a gun just like I control / own my body, but that doesn’t give me the right to use the gun or my body any way I might wish.

So the fact of self-ownership (as evidenced by control) is not the same thing (nor a valid argument for) a morality of non-violence. Something more must be added.

Do you disagree?

I think the problem is that I butted into a discussion you were having with someone else, without fully knowing the details of what was being discussed. This is why I can’t understand your points. You are addressing what must be someone else’s comments. I’ll butt out now and pay closer attention next time before jumping in again. I’ll throw in a few thoughts below…

“Self-ownership (non-violence, etc.) is the only objective ethic …”

I don’t know what this statement means.

“I respond: The issues with children (among others) are a case that doesn’t work (it offends our sense of justice and the necessary actions for good society to continue)
“You say: it does fit, because the consequences to third parties (children) are to be considered”

This must be someone else’s comments, explaining my confusion.

“I say: ok, if that’s the criteria, then we’ve already gone far beyond the exclusively “non-violent” ethic. In fact, there are issues with conferred risk (drunk driving) and a number of other areas.”

Could be, I’m way out to lunch on this conversation and should really be quiet.

“I think this is a severe problem with the claims to moral objectivity being rooted in libertarian theory

“In addition, the basics don’t look right: self-ownership means “I have physical control”; there is no chain of argument (so far) that connects the physical reality to the moral claim. “I have control” doesn’t mean that I SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do X or Y.”

Here’s one I can respond to: self-ownership means the right to exclusive control over one’s body. The moral justification of self-ownership is in the fact that no one can dispute its validity without falling into contradiction. It means, you cannot be both coherent and dispute the validity of self-ownership all in the same breath.

Self-ownership (non-violence, etc.) is the only objective ethic …

I respond: The issues with children (among others) are a case that doesn’t work (it offends our sense of justice and the necessary actions for good society to continue)

You say: it does fit, because the consequences to third parties (children) are to be considered

I say: ok, if that’s the criteria, then we’ve already gone far beyond the exclusively “non-violent” ethic. In fact, there are issues with conferred risk (drunk driving) and a number of other areas.

I think this is a severe problem with the claims to moral objectivity being rooted in libertarian theory

In addition, the basics don’t look right: self-ownership means “I have physical control”; there is no chain of argument (so far) that connects the physical reality to the moral claim. “I have control” doesn’t mean that I SHOULD or SHOULD NOT do X or Y.

I assume you disagree?

“Paul – Your last sentence indicates a general rule of morality that exceeds the libertarian “I can do whatever I want as long as it is non-violent (or consensual)”, i.e. damage to another person or a third party is an important criterion for allowed action. RE: “you happen to necessarily presuppose that no one has the right to act in a way that they know will put the other in a situation of peril, you cannot consistently argue that in doing so, a person has not incurred responsibility to restore the individual back to safety.”"

I hate to be an idiot, but somehow, I feel as if I still am not grasping your point. Are you saying that the libertarian non-aggression axiom bars hitting someone on the head, but not pushing them into water so they drown? I say it bars pushing someone in water so that they drown as well. So, let’s say you push him in by accident. Can you watch him drown with impunity? No you have obligated yourself to help him out of the water. Let’s say you do, but he is no longer breathing. Are you obligated to try to get him breathing again if you have any clue as to how to try? Yes, by your previous action you remain obligated to help him live or get someone else to try to help. Do the same ethical obligations fall on you if you had nothing to do with his falling in the water? No.

If you disagree with anything I’ve said, or agree but think it is unlibertarian of me to argue this way, can you point to the line, and put a comment to it so I get a better feel for where we are disconnected? Thanks.

Do you mind elaborating? I’m pretty sure i’m not following you.

Thx.

“3 – the relationship between a voluntary act and the results of that act necessitating an obligation of support — I can just as easily argue that rescuing someone doesn’t obligate me to care for them”

Don’t you think it matters whether you were the one responsible for their need of rescue and their subsequent need of care? If you were responsible for their dire situation and you left them to die, then are you not liable to some criminal charge? If not, then all that you say below follows. But if you are liable, then your conclusions below are dubious.

“just like having procreative sex doesn’t obligate me to care for the offspring, as well as argue for support in these cases — the arguments seem driven more by “I prefer this, let’s fill in the blanks with reasons” than by reasoning itself.”

It is not preference, but justification based on reason and the presuppositions demonstrated in the act of argumentation. If in the act of attempting to justify your stance, you happen to necessarily presuppose that no one has the right to act in a way that they know will put the other in a situation of peril, you cannot consistently argue that in doing so, a person has not incurred responsibility to restore the individual back to safety.

2 – the logical argument from physical self-ownership to a claim to universal morality (and the practicality of it) and

3 – the relationship between a voluntary act and the results of that act necessitating an obligation of support — I can just as easily argue that rescuing someone doesn’t obligate me to care for them just like having procreative sex doesn’t obligate me to care for the offspring, as well as argue for support in these cases — the arguments seem driven more by “I prefer this, let’s fill in the blanks with reasons” than by reasoning itself.

Stephan – As I understand it, to own means a reversionary right to control (hence renters do not own, and control reverts to the owner at the end of the term).

I think the conventional legal terms ought not to obscure reality or confuse us. The right to control is what ownership is. Yes, it can be divided in various ways. A landlord and tenant each have partial rights to control the leased property. In legal terms one is owner and the other is not. But in praxeological terms, both have (certain) rights to control. They are co-owners.

Given this, I have no problem saying a person is a self-owner.

Given that, what are your thoughts about ..
1 – The logical non-contradictory definition of self-ownership (or a better term denoting the rightful exclusive control of oneself, and how that plays out: if for instance, I could spend 5 cents to save someone’s life should I be obligated by law to do it, or should I be forced to testify in court to exonerate a murder suspect, etc.)
2 – the logical argument from physical self-ownership to a claim to universal morality
3 – the relationship between a voluntary act and the results of that act necessitating an obligation of support — I can just as easily argue that rescuing someone doesn’t obligate me to care for them just like having procreative sex obligates me to care for the offspring.

Unless that can be cleared up, it is still extraordinarily subjective and many times greatly offends our sense of justice and good society.

Plus the obvious problems of an ethic which proposes “self-ownership” but in fact if one owns something, one can give it away. Can one give away oneself (is that what can be meant by contract: to give away oneself?)

Actually, I deal with this in detail in my article on contract theory. To own means the right to control. It does not automatically imply the right to sell or give it away. As I explain in the linked article, the right to control an acquired thing (homesteaded, previously-unowned, external object) does imply that one may sell it. But not so for the special case of one’s body.

The idea that there are NO enforceable positive duties (supporting children, testifying in court if you happen to have evidence that exonerates a murder defendant, etc.) makes society impossible: like desperately accumulating the zeroes of “no positive duty” and calling it a positive number: good society.

Libertarians are not against positive obligations, just against those not voluntarily assumed. Where we differ is on whether having children is a type of voluntary action that does give rise to positive obligations; I argue that it does here: How We Come To Own Ourselves.

The idea that there are NO enforceable positive duties (supporting children, testifying in court if you happen to have evidence that exonerates a murder defendant, etc.) makes society impossible: like desperately accumulating the zeroes of “no positive duty” and calling it a positive number: good society.