USA Today has broken the story that, with the cooperation of AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth, the NSA has been collecting (nearly) all our phone call records since shortly after 9/11:
“It’s the largest database ever assembled in the world,” said one person, who, like the others who agreed to talk about the NSA’s activities, declined to be identified by name or affiliation. The agency’s goal is “to create a database of every call ever made” within the nation’s borders, this person added.
Notably, of the big telecomm companies only Qwest refused to cooperate despite strong pressure:
According to sources familiar with the events, Qwest’s CEO at the time, Joe Nacchio, was deeply troubled by the NSA’s assertion that Qwest didn’t need a court order — or approval under FISA — to proceed. Adding to the tension, Qwest was unclear about who, exactly, would have access to its customers’ information and how that information might be used.
Financial implications were also a concern, the sources said. Carriers that illegally divulge calling information can be subjected to heavy fines. The NSA was asking Qwest to turn over millions of records. The fines, in the aggregate, could have been substantial.
Here’s what should happen as a result of this news: AT&T, Verizon and BellSouth should pay dearly in the marketplace with customers scrambling to get their service away from companies they don’t trust. Bush should be impeached and the head of the NSA that oversaw all this, Air Force Gen. Michael Hayden, should be up on charges with huge amounts of jail time. What actually will happen remains to be seen.
Also see USA Today’s chilling Q&A… “Q: Does the NSA’s domestic program mean that my calling records have been secretly collected? A: In all likelihood, yes… [including] calls from home phones and wireless phones.”
Crossposted to LRC Blog
{ 29 comments }
…and we wondered why Qwest lost out, to Verizon, in its(higher) bid for MCI ??
Just heard the Fuhrer’s little press conference on the radio. Now his rationalization goes a little something like this:
Now I am just confused. If you know who the ‘terrorists’ are and you know their associates, why don’t you just go pick them up? Why listen to their phone calls? Doesn’t it endanger ‘national security’ by keeping them on the streets?
Now the prez’s reassurance that everything is all well and good because it is ‘legal’, is basically meaningless drivel. Anything can be ‘legal’ if the prez gets enough of his buddies to agree. Everything is legal when you get to make the law.
Hi Austrian folks,
As much as I understand, from the libertarian viewpoint and considering the intolerable intrusion in everyone’s freedom, this initiative is simply dreadful!!
However, I’d like to hear some opinions on the following issue: what if, by means of some intercepted call, a planned terrorist action similar to 11/9 could be avoided in a near future?
Is there anything more valuable than human life?
Please note that this is not a word game but a real possibility.
Analyses welcome.
Thanks and regards from Rio/ Brazil.
rhu: “Is there anything more valuable than human life?”
Yes, property rights and personal freedom. Without them, you’re not living but just existing.
Perhaps a more relevant question to ask would be why “terrorists” would want to attack Americans and American interests in the first place (more along the lines of American foreign policy and not because they’re “jealous of our freedom”), and what can be done to put an end to these threats . If a terrorist action is somehow prevented by wiretapping, those who truly wish to do harm will simply find another way to do so and the endless cycle of violations of civil liberties in order to “protect our freedom” will no doubt continue. As Ben Franklin said those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will wind up with neither.
I suppose I stick out like a sore thumb here in that I don’t really give a flying one if the government is spying on me. I’d happily hand over my phone records or whatever if asked by anyone. The government is ignorant enough already and keeping it more ignorant doesn’t sound like a great victory to me. The way I see things as time goes on more and more information is going to readily available to whoever wants it and easy privacy will be a thing of the past. Get used to it or encrypt your data.
Regarding the reason why terrorists are attacking, we can’t go back in time and guide Jimmy Carter in making sure we aren’t viewed as the “Great Satan”. Enough damage has done by now that the marginal increase in hatred of us by the most egregious actions on the part of the U.S government is going to be insignificant, likely paling in comparison to Korans rumored to be flushed or cartoons in Danish newspapers. The lack of attacks in the U.S since the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq would seem to indicate that the relationship between attacks and hawkish foreign policy is not a simple directly proportional one or the unthinkable possibility that the government managed to implement an effective counter-terrorism policy. I lean toward the former.
Ben Franklin never said “those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will wind up with neither” or something to that effect. It was printed on an anonymous pamphlet that historians have concluded was NOT written by Franklin. At least you didn’t try that “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” missatribution to Jefferson.
“I’d happily hand over my phone records or whatever if asked by anyone”
Ah, another resident of the land of the free rationalises tyranny. Did someone actually say that America is the home of the brave? More like, home of the slave. Life, liberty and property, yeah, whatever!
> I’d happily hand over my phone records or whatever if asked by anyone.
That’s fine for you, but I hope you understand if I don’t agree that you or anyone else should be able to make that decision for me. It is simply not anybody’s business who I call. Ten years ago if you would have suggested that this sort of thing was going on, you would have been dismissed as some sort of paranoid nutjob.
> The way I see things as time goes on more and more information is going to readily available to whoever wants it and easy privacy will be a thing of the past. Get used to it or encrypt your data.
No doubt true, although I will observe that I have no way to encrypt my phone provider’s call records. Privacy becomes easy or nearly impossible based on what customers are willing to accept and what businesses are forced to do (banks, etc.). Clearly in this case the phone companies had a choice, and they chose poorly imo.
TGGP sez;
“Ben Franklin never said “those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will wind up with neither” or something to that effect…at least you didn’t try that “Dissent is the highest form of patriotism” missatribution to Jefferson”
How about these;
(http://etext.virginia.edu/jefferson/quotations/jeffcont.htm);
“Single acts of tyranny may be ascribed to the accidental opinion of a day; but a series of oppressions, begun at a distinguished period and pursued unalterably through every change of ministers, too plainly prove a deliberate, systematic plan of reducing [a people] to slavery.” –Thomas Jefferson: Rights of British America, 1774.
and
“Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God.” –Thomas Jefferson: his motto.
How do those quotes square with your statements, TGGP?
“The lack of attacks in the U.S since the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq would seem to indicate that the relationship between attacks and hawkish foreign policy is not a simple directly proportional one”
There haven’t been attacks in America, but conveniently, for those who want to attack Americans, there are thousands of them in the form of unfortunate soldiers in Iraq, where they are attacked every day and will continue to be attacked, and almost 2,500 and counting have been killed.
I’m surprised I wasn’t flamed worse, because I was really asking for it based on what I’ve observed here before.
Steve: Where are life, liberty and property lost? I’m not dead, I’m still allowed to call and be called by the same people as before (I’m ignoring the Do-Not-Call list for now) and none of my posessions have been taken from me. The government simply has information they did not have earlier. If they actually took my answering machine I’d be pretty upset, because it’s a handy thing to have around. And if this is slavery, there are plenty of antebellum cotton pickers, rowers on Roman galleys and Ottoman eunuchs who would like to switch places.
Vince: They square just fine, we were talking about Ben Franklin.
Andrew: If you want to claim that invading Iraq was a bad idea, you’re not going to get any argument from me, but argumentum ad casualty isn’t that great a strategy. It hardly analogizes well with the 3000 in a day of 9/11, it falls on a volunteer military that is more supportive of the war than the general population (surely caused by cultural hegemony induced false consciousness or b-losses as its called at LewRockwell), and it compares too favorably with casualties under the first four years of Pax Clintonica (if you can stand reading neocon ranting the numbers here are nevertheless interesting: http://www.frontpagemag.com/blog/BlogEntry.asp?ID=642) and numerous other wars we’ve been involved in in a way that understates the idiocy behind it. As casualties decline with improvements in the military to the point that we fight our wars with multimillion dollar robots that don’t have mothers to grieve the argument will lose its effectiveness but stupid interventions will still be stupid.
Well another liberty gets sacrificed to the finding of the terrorists. As far as this particular issue, I would agree that it is not a big deal but taken in total with this administrations other not big deals we get a blatant attack on our liberty:
1. Forcing employeers to monitor the legal status of employees.
2. Monitoring phone conversations without court order when authorization can come from a court expost the conversation.
3. National ID cards.
4. Imprisioning US citizens without cause or even a hearing for extended periods of time.
5. Confiscating firearms from citizens in a devastated area (New Orleans).
The other cost of this stupid program is that it costs very real and scarce resources that could be spent actually hunting and arresting real terrorists. Instead of living in this fantasy land of wars and spying the president could spend his money getting the terrorists.
One comment states: “What if NSA intercepted a terrorist call and saved some lives; is there anything more valuable than human life?”
I agree that saving human life is of supreme importance. Professor R. J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii is the world’s foremost expert on the issue of democide and genocide killing by government. He has been nominated several times for the Nobel Prize for his research on government killing. I corresponded with him, and asked him how many people have been killed by terrorists. He replied that the estimate would be “around 12,000″ since 1972. In comparision to that, his research shows that about 212,000,000 unarmed civilians were killed by their own govenments during the last century (and that number does NOT include combat deaths). That number is more than SIX TIMES the number of all combat deaths from all wars from (which was 34,021,000). Compare 212,000,000 unarmed civilians killed by government last century to 12,000 killed terrorists since 1972. WHAT IS MORE DANGEROUS TO HUMAN LIFE? Rummel says, the pattern of government killing was power. The more police power the government had, the more it killed it’s own citizens. The PATRIOT ACT and domestic spying on citizens is a major step toward the kind of police state that is far more dangerous than anything terrorists can do. It is not even a worthy comparison!
So yes, let’s save lives: ABOLISH THE PATRIOT ACT, stop domestic spying, and give us a small government that obeys (rather than shreds) the constitution!
Here is the URL/link to Dr. R. J. Rummel’s data:
http://freedomspeace.blogspot.com/2005/11/reevaluating-chinas-democide-to-be.html.
Mark,
Nice post & Good Link.
“The more police power the government had, the more it killed it’s own citizens. The PATRIOT ACT and domestic spying on citizens is a major step toward the kind of police state that is far more dangerous than anything terrorists can do. It is not even a worthy comparison!”
The above quote is the type of the truth, readily observable and verifiable, that should detangle the fuzziest of notions.
That you took the time, to find the fact to slay the fallacy, and by so doing, shows it can be done, deserves high credit.
Unfortunately, the PATRIOT act is only the icing on the cake. Add to it the remote wiretap law, passed during the last president’s rein. It requires all telephone companies to install hardware to allow any phone to be tapped at any time, and the government listeners can be anywhere at all.
How were AT&T &etc able to dump the full packet streams from their backbones into the databanks under Ft. Mead? Because even the PATRIOT act is built upon a foundation of incremental infringement always justified by the needs of the moment.
The only problem I see with us Chicken Littles trying to warn folks that leviathan is constantly growing is that if we were to try telling anyone just how truly huge leviathan is, and how fast it is actually growing, no one would believe it.
Recall how quickly people stopped talking about “black helicopter conspiracy nuts” when it turned out that there actually were small-unit urban “training” exercises being carried out in US cities and towns by American military forces using black “Blackhawk” helicopters.
Indeed if anyone has any concern for the sanctity of human life, they would instantly turn against coercive government regardless of form. Socrates was killed for teaching that truth is more important than politics. Politicians just *hate* that idea.
It should now be abundantly clear what was the purpose of the “Do Not Call” registry, introduced with so much hype and enthusiasm a year or two ago. It was a trick which your government played on you so you would voluntarily surrender the key which they needed to tie together your email address and your telephone number in their database.
Ben Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and their anonymous pamphleteering buddy are rolling in their graves.
Curt,
“The only problem I see with us Chicken Littles trying to warn folks that leviathan is constantly growing… ”
I know what you mean, but please understand that ol’ CL is thought an “kook/idiot” because he misunderstood what to happened to him, gathered fools around him, was duped by a Knave, and was thankful,to the Monarch that owned his soul, that he was enabled to continue believing that which was not true.
What Mark did, in the post above, was simple and effective. Took an incredibly inane premise, presented sound fact contra to it, and made sane the conclusion.
You, yourself, have done similiar, previously.
Forget what the great many “think”, they don’t.
Care about what you think, as you pointed out, Socrates did–he taught Patrick Henry well.
The right ideas are all around us, most have have been with us for a long time. Many, even misled, know the basis of them. That we need to search, even with lamps under the noonday sun, for what is right among us, is nothing new. A sad waste of Oil, in one sense, true, but if we don’t search we risk the truest of darkness.
Ohhh, you know they are.(even the “anonymous” one)
Australia has been recording phone calls for years before September 11.
Guess who this information is shared with?
That’s right, the US government. Actually, it’s the other way around, the computer systems in Pine Gap are operated by the US. They filter out keywords like “bomb” and flag those numbers.
There was a case where a woman was followed by ASIO for 2 years. They installed surveillance equipment in her home and they physically followed her around. She knew it was happening after a while, but legally could do nothing. Her crime was to make a joke about a bomb during a phone call.
This was all exposed on a major, respected current affairs program. Was there a collective outcry of invasion of privacy? No. This was all way before September 11, so we can only imagine what they are doing now.
Well, that sounds like a good way to help smash the state! Make jokes about bombs, and let the “security services” waste millions of dollars following you around for years, keeping their agents utterly bored and away from whatever mischief they’d be performing otherwise!
And if this is slavery, there are plenty of antebellum cotton pickers, rowers on Roman galleys and Ottoman eunuchs who would like to switch places.
Roman galley slaves would no doubt gladly switch places with American cottonfield slaves, too, given the choice; does that mean the latter was not really a slave?
A gilded cage is no less a cage.
Knowledge is power.
This database is power.
Taking as true the assumption (and that’s all it is) that it’s only being used for targeted purposes, it is still a source of great power. Just look at what the FBI did for years with this kind of power.
And since we have no right, under the state, to revoke this power, it will eventually be abused (if it isn’t already). It’s a sure bet. And as Mark noted, the state is much more deadly to its citizens than any terrorist could ever dream of being.
Didn’t expect R.J “Democratic Peace” Rummel to be touted here, where as the Athens & U.S article today informs us Democracy = Bad. I bet Mr. Rummel would be shocked someone was trying to equate the U.S with China or wiretapping with engineered famine and mass purges. But what does he know? McDonald’s Peace and Greens Peace (golf courses, not Greenpeace) seem more tenable with his theory anyway.
Peter: Okay, you’re right that some versions of slavery are worse than others. But you can’t seriously call U.S citizens of today “slaves” if the word is to retain its definition. We’re paid wages for our labor and are free to quit our jobs and even leave the country. That’s not slavery. You might thinks our situation is bad, but it would be bad in a way the word “slavery” is innapropriate to describe.
If I or the posters cannot tap the calls of our neighbors, why should politicians have the right? According to TGGP’s logic, if I have video cameras installed in the rooms of my house so that the Federal mafia can watch me, I have not really given up my rights to liberty, perhaps my self respect, but not my liberty. If that is true, then words like liberty or property lose all relevance. Wiretapping is an invasion, it is an act of aggression. What would happen if I wire tapped your house? Would you feel the same way you do about the government wiretapping you? Why?
“Ben Franklin never said “those who are willing to sacrifice liberty for security will wind up with neither” or something to that effect. It was printed on an anonymous pamphlet that historians have concluded was NOT written by Franklin.”
That’s true; Jefferson said it, not Franklin.
From my perspective the problem with the “So what? I can still live my life” approach to this issue is
1) the boiling frog problem;
2) don’t be so sure you will be able to live your life peacefully now. Consider a scenario where an old college buddy calls you. Unbeknownst to you he is under investigation for some real or imagined white collar/blue collar crime. The authorities now entrap you or otherwise drum up charges on you because they think there might be a chance you know something and they can get you to inform on him. They don’t give one rat’s behind about your guilt or innocence, you are just a means to an end. You are ruined with the legal fees.
A previous poster noted, knowledge is power. That is essentially what the whole issue of privacy boils down to.
a similar objection goes like “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.” Clearly there are human rights problems with this statement. But there are practical problems as well… it is almost impossible _not_ to break some law living in the United States today. Most citizens probably break several laws a day without even knowing it. I think at the heart of the “if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear argument” is confusing morality with legality. With enough laws on the books, everyone can have something to fear, even though they may not feel they have something immoral to hide.
jmo, of course.
“This database is power.”
Indeed. It is a power for the politicians to abuse, and it is a power that criminals will seek. I wouldn’t be surprised if criminals already have access to these databases.
steve: Now we’re getting somewhere. I would have a problem with you installing cameras in my house, because its my house and not your storage closet. I might wish to use whatever nook is being occupied or I might dislike the sight of them in my house. In that sense I don’t distinguish between cameras and any other item of property. I presume the cameras also drain electricity I pay for. If you set up your cameras outside my house but looking through my windows, I’m not going to demand you turn them off. Either I put up with it (and as I’ve stated here before, I personally do not have any special attachment to my own privacy) or I cover the window. I don’t distinguish between you and the government in that regard. You can listen in on my phone conversations if you want to. If that’s aggression, then the word aggression has lost all meaning, as you put it earlier. To me freedom and liberty are the lack of restrictions on my actions imposed by other people. I should point out that I do not want the freedom to kill, rob and rape, but I do not feel the need to redefine those as not “freedom” because I don’t use the word “free” as a synonym for “good”. I should also point out that my idea of “good” is subjective and I don’t pretend it is universal.
Ryan: Do you have a link for your attribution of the anonymous pamphlet to Jefferson? Everything I’ve read focuses solely on it not being Franklin without saying who it was.
hz: If I were to borrow your “boiling frog” issue, I would say that this is like a frog worrying about being boiled because he is in water. Water is not a problem and frogs swim in it all the time. The heat is what kills and it can do so either in or out of water. I always thought the boiling frog analogy was stupid anyway as evolution would seem to have weeded out those that can’t distinguish and flee from tolerable and intolerable heat. For your second objection, I hope to God everybody has a recording of my conversation so I can prove it was innocent! The government is going to arrest a lot of innocent people because it is an inept organization. I would prefer they were better informed so they wouldn’t screw up so often. I don’t wish for the police to wear blinders over their eyes or use scratched magnifying glasses or to contaminate their DNA tests. I don’t see how preventing better information from reacing them is a good thing. I see it as increasing the likelihood that innocent people will be wrongly pursued and guilty people will not.
TGGP:
re 1: the boiling frog is a simple metaphor that is shorthand for the problem I see. The difference between us is that you don’t think the heat is on. I do think the heat is on, and I would prefer that it be turned off, rather than me having to leave the land of my birth because political conditions are intolerable.
re 2: i think there are several differences between us here. “everybody” doesn’t have a recording — just the authorities. And the database in question is one of phone connections, not recordings. In the scenario, the old buddy might not even be under investigation at the time, but later. You will still come under suspicion because the database exists. Again, I don’t think the authorities are in the business of caring so much about real guilt or innocence. To them, everybody is guilty of _something_. So no, I don’t agree that this database decreases the likelihood of innocent people being pursued, rather the opposite.
I think another difference is that you have greater trust in the authorities than i do. One example I can think of offhand is video/audio in police cruisers. The tapes often get ‘misplaced’ if they have evidence that contradicts the officer’s version of events. I personally know one person that this has happened to, and have heard of others both from official and anecdotal sources. Again, this information you think will be so great to have will not likely be a two-way flow.
At any rate, it seems we agree that knowledge is power. You seem to trust more people with it than I do.
the money quote: ” “everybody” doesn’t have a recording”
If the the “authorities” were truly interested in
having the ability to use this gathered info for the purpose they propound, they would port it directly to a website, on the i-net, for all to see. Many, akin to massively parallel computing arrays, would gladly donate their time to assist in sifting this info. (this, of course, presumes the “authorities’” Right to do this, in the 1st place–which, personally, I think not)
quasibill gets the intent, correctly: “Knowledge is power. This database is power.”
To borrow a thought from The Police, as opposed to “the authorities” : if we are content to be just a statistic on a Government chart, then we are better served Serving then trying to hone our mastery to be better Masters of ourselves.
As an aside: when this story was printed on the frontpage of the USA Today, I showed it, while waiting in line at the C-Store, to a 1/2 dozen people: 4 of which exuded palpable fear, of the topic, and averted their eyes shortly thereafter, 1 responded with the “I know, but what are ya gonna do?”, and the other, in sum, “I know, it blows, I gotta go, to earn more dough.”
I guess, I relate, the above to y’all, because I suggest, the next time the MSM has the courage to front-page this type of thing, do it yourselves, and see if if peep in your neck of the woods are any different…
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