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Source link: http://archive.mises.org/4828/the-four-in-hand-tie-is-here/

The Four-in-Hand Tie is Here!

March 24, 2006 by

New in the store

{ 32 comments }

Wild Pegasus March 24, 2006 at 11:41 am

Real men use the full Windsor.

- Josh

jeffrey March 24, 2006 at 12:09 pm

yes, real men circa 1974. (teasing, De Gustibus etc. )

drs March 24, 2006 at 12:30 pm

Full Windsor, yuck! The full Windsor is appropriate if you have a very wide spread in your shirt collar, even then it doesn’t harmonize well with most men’s faces. As long as you can manage to tie your tie so as not to have a miniscule knot, you should probably avoid the Windsor.

The Economist March 24, 2006 at 1:22 pm

When can we get the Bastiat cravat?

George Gaskell March 24, 2006 at 1:41 pm

I’d go with a Half-Windsor with a straight collar, and a Four-in-Hand with a buttondown.

(The Bastiat cravat thing really cracked me up.)

drs March 24, 2006 at 1:54 pm

Now we just need some weskits.

J. H. Huebert March 24, 2006 at 2:02 pm

I own this tie and it is indeed of high quality. As the bookstore’s description says, $45 may seem like a lot, but you would pay more than that for a tie of comparable quality at most stores… and it wouldn’t even have the Mises crest on it!

Also, it’s much nicer than the ties the Mises store used to offer (so if you have the old one, replacement is in order).

Sebastian Weil March 24, 2006 at 3:49 pm

Windsor knots work best if there is a wide spread in your shirt collar and if you’re rather well built.

Either way, you _never_ ever wear a tie with a button down shirt. The only way you could possibly get away with it is if you’re a computer engineer with blue short sleeve and you’re good for millions of dollar.

drs March 24, 2006 at 4:00 pm

Sebastian
what do you mean about not wearing a tie with a button down shirt? If you are refering to George Gaskell’s reference to a four-in-hand, I think he was alluding to a button-down collar, in which case he is kosher. It is not as dressy as a plain collar, but it is perfectly acceptable for most jobs, or dressy-casual social outings. If you are referring to the habit of people wearing ties with non-dress shirts (like polos, or buttonup sportswear) I concur.

Tom Woods March 24, 2006 at 5:05 pm

I guess I am unsound on the button-down collar question, but I can’t stand wearing my buttonless collared shirts. If, God forbid, you take your tie off at the end of the day, you’re dragging around this wide-open, 1970s-looking collar. Why don’t I wear bell bottoms to work, too?

The button-down collar, on the other hand, works with a tie and without, dignified for all occasions. No hanging open collars that look like you belong on Welcome Back, Kotter.

jeffrey March 24, 2006 at 5:11 pm

Tom, you are precisely right on the button-down collar question. They are never suitable for dress wear (black tie, white tie, etc.) but always suitable for casual office wear, which of course means a tie. A button shirt without a button-down collar should never be worn without a tie unless it is a so-called “work shirt” in denim blue.

drs March 24, 2006 at 5:19 pm

Tom Woods
I have a few button-down collar dress shirts, I like them with blazers and odd jackets. For the most part I prefer standard spread collars, I like the cleaner, more formal look. I can certainly see your point regarding a standard dress shirt with the top button undone (this depends on the collar though). One hot day I took my tie off while leaving work and went to the store. When I saw my reflection in the glass door I looked like a hipster doofus. So, when are the Mises haberdashers going to favor us with some linen pocket squares?

Dennis Sperduto March 24, 2006 at 7:32 pm

I’ll admit to being naive, but with the exception of Jeffrey Tucker, I never thought that those who are so intellectually oriented would have so much to say about the proper type of knot to use with the various types of shirt collars.

Question, and please excuse my lack of knowledge, but does a bow tie require a straight collar or a button down collar?

jeff March 24, 2006 at 8:36 pm

Dennis, either is fine for a bow tie, provided that the spread of collar is not too wide.

George Gaskell March 25, 2006 at 3:30 pm

The button-down collar was created to keep the collar from flapping into one’s face when playing polo. I’m serious — polo players invented it. It was then adopted into normal non-sporting use, but has always had an aire of the sporty about it. That’s why it only appears on shirts made of a heavier fabric: the finer fabric is more dressy, lies flatter against the skin and is therefore better for wearing under a jacket.

I disagree, Sebastian. A tie is fine with the button-down collar. But the straight collar really does look better with a necktie.

When it comes to a bow-tie, it has a kind of Ivy League devil-may-care whimsy about it. So, I would say that a button-down collar would be fine, probably even preferred over the straight.

I may have to get a bow-tie, now that I think about it …

Christopher March 25, 2006 at 3:49 pm

Very sharp, I like it, might grab one.

anarkhos March 25, 2006 at 6:07 pm

You guys sound like your ties are on too tight, like Mr. Mackey.

/back-woods yahoo who has no ties or iron, but looks awesoe in skin

John Delano March 26, 2006 at 1:40 am

Then you can have a bit of a Rothbardian style, George Gaskell.

Marcus Epstein March 26, 2006 at 7:49 pm

I think it really depends on the size of the collar and (in some cases) the legnth the second button is from the top.
I never wear a spread collar shirt without a tie, but some people can definitely pull it off. Here’s an example of a few that work fine http://www.vineyardvines.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/products.browse/categoryID/94b077d1-90bc-411d-8fcc-6da9133e018c/ or http://www.bensilver.com/fs_storefront.asp?root=3&show=269

Similarly, if a dress shirt has a big enough collar, I don’t see anything wrong if its button down. e.g. http://www.jpressonline.com/dress_shirts_patterned_detail.php?ix=2 or http://www.brooksbrothers.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Merchant_Id=1&Section_Id=207&Product_Id=1044465&Parent_Id=203

Although it probably isn’t proper, I will sometimes wear a bowtie with an oxford because if I untie it, I sometimes loose it, and I figure the points cover the ends.

I guess for more portly people, the Full Windsor is fine, but it can look really gaudy in a lot of cases e.g. http://thegbshow.com/superbowl2004%20pages/images/MichaelIrvin1.JPG so I never use it even though I’m pretty short so sometimes it would make getting the proper length necessary.

jeffrey March 26, 2006 at 9:22 pm

Marcus, I don’t think that knot to which you link is a full Windsor. here is a full Windsor. A major advantage of the 4-in-hand knot is that it thins out anyone who wears it. It can be tied tightly or loosely depending on the effect you want to achieve. Larger knots are to be used when more idiosyncratic collars that most Americans do not wear. And yet Tom Wolfe seems to only tie the 4-in-hand.

drs March 27, 2006 at 1:22 pm

Jeffrey
you should use your obviously impressive sartorial sense to produce some columns about proper attire. If memory serves you did one within the last year or two. Please rip into such abominations as the notced lapel dinner jacket, those hideous any-color-but-black pre-tied bowties, and the awful spectacle of men wearing black shirts or four in hand ties with their dinner wear. It seems no one knows the proper way to wear black-tie anymore. I suppose that it might be claimed that I suffer from a stifling adherence to tradition, but proper standards exist for a reason, and some of us are tired of our friends and relatives forcing us to rent ghastly black tie ensembles for their weddings.

Sebastian Weil March 28, 2006 at 6:04 am

This may of course be due to the fact that I am a snobbish european without any willingness what so ever to even consider trying things that are not traditionally correct.

And, if you are like me, you do not wear a tie with a button down collar. That is reserved for american computer engineers…

drs March 28, 2006 at 12:47 pm

I have a book which includes photos of Italian designer Luciano Barbera wearing a button down collar with a high end wool tie and a plaid jacket. The button down shirt with tie has been acceptable in America since the 1920s. Perhaps it is more of an American convention, but it certainly not the mark of a cad.

Paul Edwards March 28, 2006 at 6:50 pm

“And, if you are like me, you do not wear a tie with a button down collar. That is reserved for american computer engineers…”

LOL! Them’s fightin words! :)

Gina March 29, 2006 at 2:08 pm

Ahem. Okay, boys, here’s a new twist. Which would you rather see on a Misesian of the female persuasion — a tie or a bowtie?

drs March 29, 2006 at 2:45 pm

I kind of think that girls wearing four in hands is sexy.

Roy W. Wright March 29, 2006 at 2:46 pm

A bowtie would look goofy on a woman.

Roy W. Wright March 29, 2006 at 2:48 pm

And yes, normal ties are sexy on women. I think most men would agree with that.

Paul Edwards March 29, 2006 at 3:48 pm

A bowtie on a lady definitely captures my attention.

Andrew April 3, 2006 at 3:21 pm

I kind of think that with a windsor knot leaving the top button undone looks cool.

Travis October 11, 2006 at 6:01 pm

I don’t know that I would make a blanket statment about *never* wearing ties with button-down collars, but I do think it depends on context. If you’re going for the sporty and less formal blazer or sport coat with the button-down shirt, then I’d say a tie is perfectly fine. But I would never wear a button-down shirt and tie with a suit–why ruin such a nice look by wearing a shirt with a button-down collar?

M E Hoffer October 11, 2006 at 7:08 pm

Jeffrey
“you should use your obviously impressive sartorial sense to produce some columns about proper attire. If memory serves you did one within the last year or two. Please rip into such abominations as the notced lapel dinner jacket, those hideous any-color-but-black pre-tied bowties, and the awful spectacle of men wearing black shirts or four in hand ties with their dinner wear. It seems no one knows the proper way to wear black-tie anymore. I suppose that it might be claimed that I suffer from a stifling adherence to tradition, but proper standards exist for a reason,…” -drs

This strikes me as a fine idea, and seeing how you’ve, more than likely, recuperated from your draining drain interlude :), one may figure that there exists “free-time” enough…

L-rd knows, most “Academic” publications are in dire need of an “Esquire” section.

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