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	<title>Comments on: In Praise of Disorganized Labor</title>
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	<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: Eduardo</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21876</link>
		<dc:creator>Eduardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Aug 2005 03:49:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21876</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joseph,
I agree with Paul Edwards comment posted above, and I will add that I think that there is no labour vs. capitalist equation,as opposing sides, for humans do not produce unless mixing labour and capital, so they are parts of a process, not opposites. What happens is that there are inmoral people, either capitalists or labourers, who for personal gains, and backed or supported by government officials, coerce others. ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph,<br />
I agree with Paul Edwards comment posted above, and I will add that I think that there is no labour vs. capitalist equation,as opposing sides, for humans do not produce unless mixing labour and capital, so they are parts of a process, not opposites. What happens is that there are inmoral people, either capitalists or labourers, who for personal gains, and backed or supported by government officials, coerce others. </p>
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		<title>By: Paul Edwards</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21872</link>
		<dc:creator>Paul Edwards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 20:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21872</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Joseph: From the tone of your post, it would seem you think your opinions regarding state capitalism are drastically at odds with those of the Miseans. If i am right, then i suggest you keep reading on mises.org. You may find we are not so far apart.

The few advocates of state intervention in the market who post on this blog i would hazard to say do not advocate it for the purpose of repressing labour on behalf of unethical businesses. The rest of us don&#039;t advocate any state intervention at all, but instead advocate completely free markets. In the free market that i envision all laborers would be free to seek work wherever they wished based purely on their skills and the demand for them.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph: From the tone of your post, it would seem you think your opinions regarding state capitalism are drastically at odds with those of the Miseans. If i am right, then i suggest you keep reading on mises.org. You may find we are not so far apart.</p>
<p>The few advocates of state intervention in the market who post on this blog i would hazard to say do not advocate it for the purpose of repressing labour on behalf of unethical businesses. The rest of us don&#8217;t advocate any state intervention at all, but instead advocate completely free markets. In the free market that i envision all laborers would be free to seek work wherever they wished based purely on their skills and the demand for them.</p>
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		<title>By: joseph zack</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21866</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph zack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 14:40:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21866</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[  I am of two minds concerning the Union article.

  My first opinion is that yes, unionized labor has been the cause of many an economic ill.  A glance  at the railroad system history can easily verify same.  To this day, so called &quot;feather bedding&quot; [sp?] substantially limits the profit viability of any railroad within the 48.

   My second opinion lies within my family history.  Within this web-site, much verification of corruption between monopolies and government officials or just with the State per se has been presented.

  My family has roots in deep shaft anthracite coal mining,  steel milling , and of the like.  as a child, when I wasn&#039;t hearing and listening to  the family/clan &#039;s oral history concerning the Great War, the Great Depression, or War II, I heard about my mother&#039;s cousin for example.  The one who died in a mine shaft collapse.  Or the one who died from Black Lung at age 20.  

  Yes, scholars who derive their income by their wits and deep thoughts, would and do say, &quot;well,  men have freedom to move on to another job&quot;. Right.

  Time and again,  I hear how hard some &quot;genius scholar&quot; had it. So hard that.........&quot;.  

  The unionization of the mining industry was brutal.  Many times I have heard about the murders of management by the future members of the United Mine Workers for an example.  But....

  What does Mises have to say towards the massacre of the &quot;Molly MacGuires&quot;?  Not the television show, folks, but the Irish rail workers killed by the &quot;Pinks&quot;.  The Pinkertons.  Supported by your local sheriff of course. And plenty of deputies.

   Or the mass murder of the oil field workers by machine gun toting Pinks, in the Standard Oil Fields? 

   And if not Mises, then how about Rothbard?  One or another was alive during these events. 


    Yes.  Of course.  Just go find another job,  the Austrians say you can, so one can, yes?

   Let&#039;s see.  From the early ninieteenth century to the middle of the twentieth century, one , of the &quot;working class&quot; , just traipsed around the landscape , with complete freedom to pick and choose where to supply their &quot;voluntary labor&quot;.  No policemen harrassed them.  Strictly enforced &quot;no loitering&quot; laws didn&#039;t exist. The States were just one big Utopia, with everyone to pick and choose as they willed.  Sure.

   I studied &quot;Political Economy&quot; in High School. I think an additional course should have  been put together.  One in &quot;Historical Economy&quot;.  

   Wherein, the students would be required to research old micro-films of the times of labour unrest in America. They would be &quot;encouraged&quot; to study one city, for one decade, [?], better make that one year.  They would perforce read ALL articles in all newspapers.  To get a taste of the times, as it were. Records of births and deaths.  Articles of the nobility of the times , to be found within the Society pages. They could read the various accounts of policemen on horseback, dispersing rioting good for nothings.  

   News flash folks,  more &quot;union organizers&quot; and &quot;strikers&quot; were killed, than ever a capitalist and/or his family.  But the Austrians say that the monopolists were evil and if they hadn&#039;t existed , then workers COULD have chosen their employment without coercion.  Uh-huh.
The monopolista did exist.  They did own politicians.  They owned the police forces as well. As for the judges,  I&#039;ll let others instruct me concerning that item..... 

   So in resolution,  what can be my final determination?  Yes, the unions did wreck upon the utopian world of Austrian economic theory.  And yes, the progression in a very real sense, of &quot;progressive labor&quot; hampered real time/place economic growth, particularly in modern times.

   But when one has just arrived from Germany, or Russia, or Austria, or Hungary;  And one has been loaded into a cattle car of a railroad train and taken to a coal town in Pa.,  an oil field in Pa. , .....

   And how about those one hundred or so thousand Chinese &quot;imported &quot; to America to be working on the railroad.  All the live long day?  Those folks, so say the theologically pure Austrians, were to just &quot;up and leave&quot; , their employment and go finc another job with better wages.  Hmmmm..  Yeah. Okay.

  well............you folks figure out the rest

  But do these prior brutal times excuse least explain the corruption of the Teamsters under Jimmy Hoffa?  Or the Polish fella who colluded with Joe Kennedy to give West Virgina in the 1960 election?  No.  Modern day union criminality, as well as abuse directed towards a worker disagreeing with the leadership [many times resulting in a pair of concrete overshoes] can not be explained as legitamat.  Legitimate in as the ends justifying the means.


  I humbly submit, that for every economic evil on one side of a labor vs. capitalist equation, there exists its counterpoint on the other side.

submitted with respect

Z.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  I am of two minds concerning the Union article.</p>
<p>  My first opinion is that yes, unionized labor has been the cause of many an economic ill.  A glance  at the railroad system history can easily verify same.  To this day, so called &#8220;feather bedding&#8221; [sp?] substantially limits the profit viability of any railroad within the 48.</p>
<p>   My second opinion lies within my family history.  Within this web-site, much verification of corruption between monopolies and government officials or just with the State per se has been presented.</p>
<p>  My family has roots in deep shaft anthracite coal mining,  steel milling , and of the like.  as a child, when I wasn&#8217;t hearing and listening to  the family/clan &#8216;s oral history concerning the Great War, the Great Depression, or War II, I heard about my mother&#8217;s cousin for example.  The one who died in a mine shaft collapse.  Or the one who died from Black Lung at age 20.  </p>
<p>  Yes, scholars who derive their income by their wits and deep thoughts, would and do say, &#8220;well,  men have freedom to move on to another job&#8221;. Right.</p>
<p>  Time and again,  I hear how hard some &#8220;genius scholar&#8221; had it. So hard that&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8221;.  </p>
<p>  The unionization of the mining industry was brutal.  Many times I have heard about the murders of management by the future members of the United Mine Workers for an example.  But&#8230;.</p>
<p>  What does Mises have to say towards the massacre of the &#8220;Molly MacGuires&#8221;?  Not the television show, folks, but the Irish rail workers killed by the &#8220;Pinks&#8221;.  The Pinkertons.  Supported by your local sheriff of course. And plenty of deputies.</p>
<p>   Or the mass murder of the oil field workers by machine gun toting Pinks, in the Standard Oil Fields? </p>
<p>   And if not Mises, then how about Rothbard?  One or another was alive during these events. </p>
<p>    Yes.  Of course.  Just go find another job,  the Austrians say you can, so one can, yes?</p>
<p>   Let&#8217;s see.  From the early ninieteenth century to the middle of the twentieth century, one , of the &#8220;working class&#8221; , just traipsed around the landscape , with complete freedom to pick and choose where to supply their &#8220;voluntary labor&#8221;.  No policemen harrassed them.  Strictly enforced &#8220;no loitering&#8221; laws didn&#8217;t exist. The States were just one big Utopia, with everyone to pick and choose as they willed.  Sure.</p>
<p>   I studied &#8220;Political Economy&#8221; in High School. I think an additional course should have  been put together.  One in &#8220;Historical Economy&#8221;.  </p>
<p>   Wherein, the students would be required to research old micro-films of the times of labour unrest in America. They would be &#8220;encouraged&#8221; to study one city, for one decade, [?], better make that one year.  They would perforce read ALL articles in all newspapers.  To get a taste of the times, as it were. Records of births and deaths.  Articles of the nobility of the times , to be found within the Society pages. They could read the various accounts of policemen on horseback, dispersing rioting good for nothings.  </p>
<p>   News flash folks,  more &#8220;union organizers&#8221; and &#8220;strikers&#8221; were killed, than ever a capitalist and/or his family.  But the Austrians say that the monopolists were evil and if they hadn&#8217;t existed , then workers COULD have chosen their employment without coercion.  Uh-huh.<br />
The monopolista did exist.  They did own politicians.  They owned the police forces as well. As for the judges,  I&#8217;ll let others instruct me concerning that item&#8230;.. </p>
<p>   So in resolution,  what can be my final determination?  Yes, the unions did wreck upon the utopian world of Austrian economic theory.  And yes, the progression in a very real sense, of &#8220;progressive labor&#8221; hampered real time/place economic growth, particularly in modern times.</p>
<p>   But when one has just arrived from Germany, or Russia, or Austria, or Hungary;  And one has been loaded into a cattle car of a railroad train and taken to a coal town in Pa.,  an oil field in Pa. , &#8230;..</p>
<p>   And how about those one hundred or so thousand Chinese &#8220;imported &#8221; to America to be working on the railroad.  All the live long day?  Those folks, so say the theologically pure Austrians, were to just &#8220;up and leave&#8221; , their employment and go finc another job with better wages.  Hmmmm..  Yeah. Okay.</p>
<p>  well&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;you folks figure out the rest</p>
<p>  But do these prior brutal times excuse least explain the corruption of the Teamsters under Jimmy Hoffa?  Or the Polish fella who colluded with Joe Kennedy to give West Virgina in the 1960 election?  No.  Modern day union criminality, as well as abuse directed towards a worker disagreeing with the leadership [many times resulting in a pair of concrete overshoes] can not be explained as legitamat.  Legitimate in as the ends justifying the means.</p>
<p>  I humbly submit, that for every economic evil on one side of a labor vs. capitalist equation, there exists its counterpoint on the other side.</p>
<p>submitted with respect</p>
<p>Z.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Jackson</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21865</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Jackson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 13:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21865</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Their employers are just as bad with state collusion. Shouldn&#039;t one balance out the other?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Their employers are just as bad with state collusion. Shouldn&#8217;t one balance out the other?</p>
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		<title>By: Peter List</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21853</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter List</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 06:00:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21853</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Samuel Gompers knew that government intervention into labor relations, although perhaps pro-union at its start, would eventually lead to disaster for the union movement.  Unfortunately, after Gompers died in 1924, the socialist wing of the AF of L gained momentum in advocating for unions to be &quot;legitimized&quot; by the government.  in 1926, the unions were rewarded with the passage of the Railway Labor Act and in 1935, the passage of the National Labor Relations Act (labor&#039;s &quot;magna carta&quot;)....However, 12 years later, Gompers was proven right with the passage of the NLRA&#039; Taft-Hartley Amendments and, in 1959, the Labor Management Reporting and Discloser Act (LMRDA).  Stands to reason:  Be careful what you ask for, &#039;cause you might just get it.

GREAT ARTICLE!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Samuel Gompers knew that government intervention into labor relations, although perhaps pro-union at its start, would eventually lead to disaster for the union movement.  Unfortunately, after Gompers died in 1924, the socialist wing of the AF of L gained momentum in advocating for unions to be &#8220;legitimized&#8221; by the government.  in 1926, the unions were rewarded with the passage of the Railway Labor Act and in 1935, the passage of the National Labor Relations Act (labor&#8217;s &#8220;magna carta&#8221;)&#8230;.However, 12 years later, Gompers was proven right with the passage of the NLRA&#8217; Taft-Hartley Amendments and, in 1959, the Labor Management Reporting and Discloser Act (LMRDA).  Stands to reason:  Be careful what you ask for, &#8217;cause you might just get it.</p>
<p>GREAT ARTICLE!</p>
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		<title>By: V Harris</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21851</link>
		<dc:creator>V Harris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 04:16:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21851</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a pleasure to read Christopher Westley&#039;s article on labor unions.  Here&#039;s an Austrian Economist who properly places the criticism for ill-behaved labor unions exclusively on the protections they receive from the state.

Further, he recognizes the relatively benign nature that free-market, voluntarily-collusive, unions would have.

Just as capital pools form, invest, and dissolve, so would labor pools.  Freeing laborers from both state protection and conspiracy regulations would give them the opportunity to *peacefully* organize to take advantage of any imbalances of labor supply and demand in the marketplace.

And just as the market eventually works to resolve these imbalances for capital pools (e.g., cartels), such will be the case for labor pools.  Just as do cartels, unions would form to take advantage of these imbalances until the market eventually works to eliminate them.  Then, just as do cartels, unions would dissolve -- unable to restrain &#039;cheating&#039; by members -- only to pop up again when opportunity arises.

It&#039;s refreshing to read an Austrian Economist who accurately attacks the state for the extant destructive nature of unionism -- while explicitly welcoming unprotected, voluntary unions to the &quot;big tent&quot; of free markets.

Thank you Professor Westley.

V Harris
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a pleasure to read Christopher Westley&#8217;s article on labor unions.  Here&#8217;s an Austrian Economist who properly places the criticism for ill-behaved labor unions exclusively on the protections they receive from the state.</p>
<p>Further, he recognizes the relatively benign nature that free-market, voluntarily-collusive, unions would have.</p>
<p>Just as capital pools form, invest, and dissolve, so would labor pools.  Freeing laborers from both state protection and conspiracy regulations would give them the opportunity to *peacefully* organize to take advantage of any imbalances of labor supply and demand in the marketplace.</p>
<p>And just as the market eventually works to resolve these imbalances for capital pools (e.g., cartels), such will be the case for labor pools.  Just as do cartels, unions would form to take advantage of these imbalances until the market eventually works to eliminate them.  Then, just as do cartels, unions would dissolve &#8212; unable to restrain &#8216;cheating&#8217; by members &#8212; only to pop up again when opportunity arises.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s refreshing to read an Austrian Economist who accurately attacks the state for the extant destructive nature of unionism &#8212; while explicitly welcoming unprotected, voluntary unions to the &#8220;big tent&#8221; of free markets.</p>
<p>Thank you Professor Westley.</p>
<p>V Harris</p>
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		<title>By: Aaron Singleton</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21849</link>
		<dc:creator>Aaron Singleton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:59:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hopefully this is part of a trend that will eventually see the eradication of the entire strain of economic fallacies upon which organized labor and other statist actions are based. Namely the fallacy that we can improve our standard of living without being more productive, but simply by government fiat. Inflation, unionism and protectionism all fall under this same category. I&#039;m not crossing my fingers that these fallacies will go away completely anytime soon, but the demise of popular support for unions is an encouraging omen.

&lt;a href=&quot;http://foranewliberty.blogspot.com&quot; target=&quot;blank&quot;&gt;Homepage&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hopefully this is part of a trend that will eventually see the eradication of the entire strain of economic fallacies upon which organized labor and other statist actions are based. Namely the fallacy that we can improve our standard of living without being more productive, but simply by government fiat. Inflation, unionism and protectionism all fall under this same category. I&#8217;m not crossing my fingers that these fallacies will go away completely anytime soon, but the demise of popular support for unions is an encouraging omen.</p>
<p><a href="http://foranewliberty.blogspot.com" target="blank">Homepage</a></p>
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		<title>By: tz</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21845</link>
		<dc:creator>tz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 03:34:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Or it is simply a monopoly dissolving as they always do eventually.  But I would note the equally evil trend with Digital Rights Management and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act - which has examples of egregious police actions - seems to be replacing the Union as the Government favored monopoly.  (I don&#039;t know what went between trade patents like the East India and South Seas company and Unions - the latter because of the democratization of government when manufacturing was on the rise - but there was probably something).  As IP becomes more important, the Government must bless big corporations as they are easier to control, so the push for things like DCMA and Software Patents and things like CAFTA now want to push anti-piracy measures to the rest of the world.
]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Or it is simply a monopoly dissolving as they always do eventually.  But I would note the equally evil trend with Digital Rights Management and the Digital Millenium Copyright Act &#8211; which has examples of egregious police actions &#8211; seems to be replacing the Union as the Government favored monopoly.  (I don&#8217;t know what went between trade patents like the East India and South Seas company and Unions &#8211; the latter because of the democratization of government when manufacturing was on the rise &#8211; but there was probably something).  As IP becomes more important, the Government must bless big corporations as they are easier to control, so the push for things like DCMA and Software Patents and things like CAFTA now want to push anti-piracy measures to the rest of the world.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Shepperd</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/3944/in-praise-of-disorganized-labor/comment-page-1/#comment-21841</link>
		<dc:creator>Nathan Shepperd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Aug 2005 02:03:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/archives/003944.asp#comment-21841</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Trends like these tend to offer a little more hope for the future. People who pin their hopes on government are going to be continually disappointed.
I&#039;ve got a feeling that global trade will be enough to counter the destructive influence of states, whether people realise what&#039;s happening or not. If we&#039;re lucky, the 20th century might turn out ot be a nasty aberration, barring some ludcrous disaster.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Trends like these tend to offer a little more hope for the future. People who pin their hopes on government are going to be continually disappointed.<br />
I&#8217;ve got a feeling that global trade will be enough to counter the destructive influence of states, whether people realise what&#8217;s happening or not. If we&#8217;re lucky, the 20th century might turn out ot be a nasty aberration, barring some ludcrous disaster.</p>
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