Comedian Adam Carolla breaks down the current occupy Wall Street movement in very frank terms (NSFW language). He dives into the cultural reasons that lead us into this situation.
See also Helmut Schoeck’s Envy: A Theory of Social Behaviour.
And, this is what the tragedy of the commons looks like.
{ 102 comments }
all true, and still irrelevant
This rant is getting a lot of play.
The “participation trophy” phenomenon is a convenient symbol of 4th generation Marxism that flowered in the 1990s.
The first generation was in the late 1800s and early 1900s, promoted by Marx’s apostles. That cultural fascination with communism came to a peak around 1914 with the Russian Revolution, Woodrow Wilson and abruptly ended with the horrors of WWI.
The second generation was, of course, the 1930s, with Wilson’s Navy Secretary installed as President for 12 years. Communism was not popular, so they called it Socialism. Then came WWII, and the presence of the socialists in Europe made it a dirty word, so they had to call it another name.
The 3rd wave of popularity for communism was the mid-to-late 1960s, the Red Diaper Babies, i.e., the children of the 1930s Socialists. But by this time, they called themselves “liberals.” They are a big group — the late-Baby Boom generation.
People like Adam Carolla were born too late to participate in this 3rd wave, being more of a Generation-X guy.
The 4th wave of Communism is the Millennial Generation, the children of the late-Boomers, the grandchildren of the 1930s New Deal radicals. These are the people who helped elect Obama, who is a remnant of his 3rd wave Communist mother’s culture. They are the ones who were in college when Obama was being elected, and are now recent graduates with nothing but debt and shrinking opportunities. Oddly enough, they don’t really have a name for what they are, since by now “liberal” is old-fashioned. Their ideology is so mainstream, they don’t have an insular, discrete name for it. “Progressive” is probably the best one, harkening back to one of the variations of “socialism” that was sometimes used 100 years earlier, which is just long enough for people to forget that it was also synonymous with eugenics and prohibition.
(You might be able to count them as 5 waves altogether, if you count the proto-Communist labor organizing of the mid-1800s that coincided with Marx’s writings, but it was not exactly mainstream yet.)
Either way, the crisis and wars that are about to begin are going to make Communist-Socialist-Left-Liberal-Whatever-ism very unpopular again.
But, if the world is still around, we’ll see it all become popular again in about 25-30 years. They will, of course, need a new name for it.
You mean like Zeitgeist or Resource Based Economy?
That’s an interesting position. I’m in my mid-20s and haven’t fallen for that, and my close friends are generally on the right side of things (right as in correct). You’re right to look at the upbringing though, since it is through upbringing, not exclusively, one forms their beliefs. Fortunately for me, I was raised in a family that had deep seated suspicion of government and centralization. I never met my grandparents on my mother’s side, since they died in the 70s; they were born at the turn of the century. But they were of the Old Right breed, and far back my ancestors were Democrats—when the Democrats were in their laissez faire form. I’m more of an eclectic in my beliefs, sharing cultural conservatism, libertarianism, and good ol’ middle-American- bourgeois traditions, and the current culture of overweening zealots, who think a return to socialism and the oppressive government needed, is dangerously sad.
I’m speaking in broad generalities, of course. The existence of any number of self-described individual libertarians or communists is not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about the changes over time in cultural movements, the media phenomena — in which collectivism (whatever the label) is openly promoted and gets cultural traction.
In actual practice, the rate of governmental growth has been faster at some times than others, but the movement toward greater and greater control has been more or less constant since 1789. It’s never really gone in the other direction.
Adam Curtis is a documentary film maker, whose work includes The Power of Nightmares, The Century of the Self, The Mayfair Set, Pandora’s Box, The Trap and The Living Dead.
all available here: http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/all-watched-over-by-machines-of-loving-grace/
it’s very sad to watch it all unfolding – the two poles of humans – both sharing the same fate and both frightened of what they think is the problem – the other
cognitive dissonance
it’s endemic – rich or poor we are blind to the reality around us
pop
Cognitive dissonance is word of the week. Cognitive dissonance is when you totally believe in the truth of two opposing views.
Virginia
Quite right.
I wonder how some people can manage to be like that (holding contractory views on the same subject at the same time). Odd. Very odd indeed.
Sione
I would think that is the easiest part. People are not theorem provers – to be able to work in a real world with finite cognitive resources and time, the machinery must be able to hold contradictory beliefs. Whether one is inclined to resolve things time permitting depends on your inclinations.,,
Exactly. It takes effort to be logical and rational. Irrationality comes much easier.
theorem provers suck. model checkers are better.
I meant to point out, with my remark, that the definition did not appear to be illustrated by pop’s remarks.
“Either way, the crisis and wars that are about to begin are going to make Communist-Socialist-Left-Liberal-Whatever-ism very unpopular again”
That’s assuming the inmates don’t take over the asylum (more than they have already, of course). I find that increasing numbers of people are economically ill educated and fall quite willingly into the trap of hollow promises that modern progressivism provides. Things like free education, free health-care, free pensions are expected from many (especially where I am originally from, England), with a giant cognitive disconnect between what is delivered and *how* it is supposed to be provided. Hence much of the Western world wishing to increase taxes for the 1%, tax financial transactions and generally rob blind the productive arm of society for their own ends.
This guy seems to be a little wishy-washy. I’m not quite sure where he stands.
Wow!
Better sound quality:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GmsCdyGD00
I had only two problems with what Carolla had to say.
First, his assumption that those who have grown rich in the past 40 years have done so honestly, meaning, without assistance from the violence of the state, or on their own merits (meaning, not through some grant of wealth passed along to them by their hard-working ancestors). The fact is that few businesses have behaved ethically, let alone without violating the liberties of their opponents and their clients.
Looking at those who are “newly” wealthy, such as the late Steve Jobs of Apple, Bill Gates of Microsoft and Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook, these individuals and their companies have benefited greatly from their collusion with the government.
* Zuckerberg has been instrumental in assisting the surveillance arm of the state, both in softening people up (especially kids) for leviathan’s increasing voyeurism and in handing over data related to “thought-crimes” and “victimless” crimes.
* Gates, for all of the hub-bub made over the “anti-trust” case in the 90′s, came out stronger than ever, his foes effectively vanquished, and having been properly “humbled” by the US and various European governments, is a leader in trying to bring the world to heel under the United Nations and its sponsors among the world’s wealthiest families. Let’s not forget also that Gates profited heavily when huge volumes of tax dollars were used to purchase Windows computers for all of those pencil-necked bureaucrats who ruin peoples’ lives on a daily basis.
* Jobs used IP law to block direct competition of both his own products and those from whom he licensed music through his iTunes software.
Then, there’s always the old money, the Bushes, Romneys, Fords, etc.
What’s key, here, is that there are very few who have made their fortunes through thrift and hard work, instead using connections and favorable lending rates to become wealthy.
Second, his simple-minded assessment that the “turrists” are suffering from shame and envy for not realizing American largesse (a largesse, as discussed above, which rarely comes from the sweat of one’s brow) misses the key factor that western imperialism has forcibly kept these people down for over a century. In those circumstances where a group has made a stab for autonomy, they’re labeled as a threat and summarily halted via the deployment of foreign (usually American) troops on their soil. I wonder how the U.S. of 2011 would view the U.S. of 1811, using genocide and war to expand its borders, the same of which it has accused Iraq, Libya, Syria and others in the middle east.
But is that purely their fault, or the fault of the system???
Thing is, before all the ‘anti-trust’ crap, Microsoft didn’t even bother with lobbying and the like. Now they are more or less forced to get into lobbying to atleast protect themselves.
The former head of BB&T (a major bank in the southeast) speaks of being FORCED by the government to take TARP money they didn’t need nor want.
So please don’t insult the MANY MANY rich people who did NOT use the system, or tried to avoid using the system.
Thanks, MB. I’m sick and ******* tired of hearing libertarians complain that the modern rich are all a bunch of sycophantic state-sponsored parasites.
A lot of them are. Not all, of course. But it depends on what you mean by the modern rich. Among the super-rich, the parasites are well-represented. The banking/financial sector is thoroughly corporatist. The military contractors are parasites by definition. The old-line families that have vast wealth from 19th century industries (Rockefeller, Vanderbilt, DuPont) made a lot of their money on fat government contracts. Every company associated with cars (makers, steel, rubber, oil, etc.) gets a fat subsidy through the government’s vast road-building subsidy and land use controls that make cars a necessity.
The solution, of course, is not more statism, but freer markets.
First of all, I’m talking the ultra-rich, like Gates, Jobs, Zuckerberg and the banksters. There is no way to become Jobs/Zuckerberg/Gates wealthy in the United States without some government interfering in your favor. Look at all of the biggest, richest corporations in the US and then take away all of the government action of the past 120 years and see how many would either exist or would be nearly as large as they are today.
To the more specific point, I have little pity for that former head of BB&T complaining about TARP money when the entire banking industry rides atop a sea of fiat currency, FDIC insurance, and a host of other fraudulent US Government institutions. Moreover, I’d wager (a safe bet, too) that the lending done by his bank was no more founded upon actual savings than any other bank over the past century (and longer). An “honest” banker in this day and age is as oxymoronic as “literate” TSA Agent.
And to Oklahoma Libertarian, I’d ask you to name 5 ultra-rich who aren’t “sycophantic state-sponsored parasites.”
I don’t endorse OWS because I agree that they’re part of what Phinn described as 4th wave socialists, and their solution is to further swing the pendulum away from its fascist position of the 2000′s and deeper into a socialist position. By that same token like I don’t endorse what has become the “mainstream” tea party and its plan to push the pendulum even harder into fascism than it had been under Bush. I think the entire nation should just be scrapped, the union dissolved like a bad marriage and any institution whose existence relies upon the state’s blessings will be left to wither on the vine.
Having principles is very important. But it has to be understood that the people mentioned by previous commenters are not libertarian ideologues. They are just business people of various political stripes that care about putting out products that make them rich.
In addition, I’d say it’s impossible in this day and age to become and continue being, a Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or Mark Zuckerberg, etc without the government letting it happen. The state won’t allow it, they want to co-opt and influence these people. Remember back when Microsoft almost never spent money on lobbying and then later got jacked around by meaningless anti-trust cases that went nowhere? The current model, intentional or not, is what I think of as the mafia model. Threaten fines and expropriation to get them involved in, and hopefully, dependent on the system, so that both the government and the corporate vassal can benefit in some way. This way the vassal is incentivized to continue the arrangement.
Imagine yourself as one of these ultra-rich builders. Now imagine that the FTC, DOJ, FBI, DEA, ATF, IRS, OSHA, SEC, or whoever shows up at your office demanding something. Not only is your personal wealth dependent on your cooperation, so is the personal wealth of the thousands of employees, the personal wealth of various shareholders you promised to safeguard with your stewardship, in addition to the fact that of millions of business and personal customers rely on the product you provide. So, of course these people, regardless of their ideology, are almost always going to acquiesce.
Keep in mind also that the products and services they provide, people flock to without any coercion. It’s like a much less extreme version of Walter Block’s voluntary slavery thesis. The fact is, people overwhelming choose to pay for and participate in these products and services of their own freewill. Own a cell phone? You run the risk of being locationally tracked through cell phone networks. Own a free email? You run the risk of having your private emails not so private. Post on social networking sites? You are now much, much easier to watch and spy on. That they are information products and highly sought after by the general public is exactly the reason why the state wants some kind of backdoor into them.
@Michael Hargett December 1, 2011 at 4:42 pm
This kind of simplistic, absolutist thinking drives me nuts. You speak as if the only way that anyone ever gets anything is by being a crook. That attitude is precisely part of the problem.
There is unfortunately, ample truth in Carolla’s somewhat crude but pretty accurate assessment. He is describing an attitude, which fundamentally you seem to exemplify.
It is a belief that the good life “belongs” to everyone equally, regardless of “thrift and hard work”. Something has been lost and Carolla is explaining to you what it is.
What I don’t get is how is it that parents in the 1950’s-1970’s were so stupid to buy the premise of “equality”? Was it the power of Dr. Spock, the surge of post-war parenthood outside of the nuclear family, the civil rights movement and the 60’s “free love” that did it? Who the hell knows?
The fact is though, once upon a time “in the day”, competition and achievement were admired. Now it is ridiculed by an assumption of “unfair” advantage. Yes, crony capitalism exists, but it should be deplored for the same reasons that unearned self-esteem should be ridiculed. We feel good when we do good, and we feel good about others when they do good, and show us what it takes to achieve great things. We may admire those who have achieved more with less; we may draw upon them for inspirations for our own ambitions.
Or we can cynically declare that one can only succeed by force and corruption, the successful are necessarily corrupt, and therefore are nothing but deplorable. We can focus our attention on destroying the persona of the instead of emulating the habits of the successful.
Where is the logic in “if we feel good about ourselves, we will do good”? Is that true? It seems that on the contrary, if we teach people to feel good no matter what they do, they do not need to do good to feel good. They are entitled to feel good about whatever they do. This is a fatal mistake, and we are and will continue to pay for it.
It is the difference between constructive and destructive behavior patterns. There is a difference.
Rants like these, while containing some element of truth are unfortunate and likely do more harm than good for the cause of liberty. Try to imagine seeing this from the viewpoint of someone on the side of the OWS guys. They’re are just gonna think:
1) He’s a famous comedian… what does he know about the socio-econmic factors that lead us to where we are?
2) He’s a famous comedian… he’s rich, he’s a part of the 1%!
3) He’s being an asshole.
So then they shut it off, likely madder at society than they were before. Again not saying there’s some truth to what he’s saying about a culure of entitlement perhaps being part of leading to the OWS movements, becasue there likely is. (Of course he goes off on comparing it to why Islamics commit terrorist acts, which I feel negates his credibility. But anyway whatever.)
My point is that we as proponents for the cause of liberty need to rise about the heated republican vs democrat vitrolic rhetoric and be a source for civil, logical discussion. You can’t argue with the truth. But you can choose to not listen to it… and many will when “truth” comes in this form. Just 2 cents from a millenial generation’er… the generation responible for this mess according to Mr. Corolla.
well said
though i must caution you that “truth” is both an elusive and pointless pursuit
we do not know what the truth is – we can only decide to choose one form or truth or another and hang our belief system upon it (often piggy-backing poorly understood secondary truths on them for various reasons mostly linked to the joy-joy feelings we get when we do so)
the first three commandments of Moses try and teach that you can not or should not do this – that the goal is to live a good and dutiful life constantly reminding yourself that your perception and belief are subject to deception by yourself and by others
ie best keep an open mind to everything
pop
i’ll tell you first i’m not a Jew
a Muslim? No, i’m not that too
i’m not a Christian that’s for sure
a Buddhist? No, not any more
but i have always loved the Word
the Ten Commandments that i heard
when i was young i learned them well
and now i’m old i’ve this to tell
the three or four that are the first
their meaning is in truth immersed
old Moses gave us words profound
their truth is such a solid ground
the first – “there is no truth but all”
it’s infinite – there is no wall
no boundary to what can be
no limit to the truth you see
it’s seems so simple yet it’s not
the greatest of the Jew’s Mitzvot
like quantum physics: if you know
you don’t! Confused? To study go!
the second – is the most abused
and many a scholar’s been confused
it talks of idols – gold or wood
a face on God is not so good
don’t fool yourself is what it means
a piece of truth’s not what it seems
you can not isolate one bit
and then in homage bow to it
i wonder if you understand?
so take a look at your right hand
is that the truth? is that hand you?
your fingernail is that “you” too?
The Truth you can not subdivide
and cast the unknown parts aside
the Wrath of God will strike you down
and in your foolishness you’ll drown
and while we’re talking number two
here’s something you should never do
don’t claim that God is this or that
He’s merciful or tall or fat
because you see that’s number three
to claim you know and make decree
to “swear to God” you know the truth
as if you were some clever sleuth
the Law dictates “do not assert”
the power of words is power to hurt
it’s only in a court of Law
that you’ll be sworn to what you saw
so don’t mislead your fellow man
don’t lead him to some Promised Land
don’t seek to rule or lie to win
don’t claim you know where to begin
those three above are all you need
the fourth means study them and heed:
each week one day is set aside
to know you should by them abide
one final word before i go
my words above are claims you know
i’ve broken number three it’s true
and breaking that breaks one and two
He is not so famous. Kinda of a B minus level, and does not get a lot of respect. Nor should he.
There goes the G rating on this web site.
Hey Justin,
I commend you on your taste in podcasts. Ace is by far my favorite podcaster.
Get it on.
Why was this video posted on this web site?
For the lulz, of course.
Fair enough.
In my opinion, he’s way off target here. As a person in their 20s, let me explain: our grandparents finished high school and got decent-paying jobs at the factory. Many of our baby-boomer parents spent their youth smoking dope and studying philosophy degrees, a large amount of them still ended up with nice corporate jobs and comfortable houses in the suburbs.
This recent generation expected the same results. And it makes sense. America has been on a pretty good run for the past 70 years. In the past, if you worked hard, you could make the American Dream happen for yourself. Unfortunately, this generation graduated into a job market where a young person is lucky to be working the counter at Starbucks. And most of us will never be able to afford a house at today’s prices much less a nice one in the suburbs. Do you really blame them for being a little angry?
Furthermore, laziness or getting trophies as a kid has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with this. I have so many friends that are extremely talented, extremely hard-working, and can’t get decent jobs in this market. The problem here is that many young people are facing unemployment rates of 15%. They would still like to be that rich guy on the street that Corolla describes, but the path to getting there seems almost nonexistent.
Hmmm…why are the kids angry….because of the 15% unemployment or because they got trophies as kids? Oh yes….must be the trophy thing. And while Corolla blasts the Millennials, they are probably least responsible for the current mess compared to previous generations who spent America into crisis.
It’s the other generations that had it much easier. Personally, I don’t identify with the boomers at all. They had the prosperity of America handed to them. The world was their oyster. I much closer identify with the Great Depression generation that had its American Dream dashed by the macroeconomic follies of others.
It is Corolla and the boomers who are soft and never learned what it is to struggle.
Case in point. Message made. Sent, delivered, and done.
I agree.
Maaaaate! You protest far too much! I’ve regularly visited the USA for several decades now and I’ve been lucky enough to meet some exceptionally skilled and talented people, but unfortunately they are in a woefully tiny minority. Some of the common attributes of the vast majority of the locals are striking and disturbing to a visitor from overseas. Perhaps you don’t notice them as much since you are immersed in the culture. Anyway, here are a few of the ones that don’t bode well.
USA is the best country in the world etc etc etc stuff. Typically the person parroting all sorts of variations of this USA patriotic mush doesn’t know much about anywhere outside the USA- certainly not enough to compare and make the conclusions he or she spouts.
Willful ignorance. No real knowledge of economics, politics, history, philosophy, literature, music, technology, culture, language and so forth. No real interest in finding out about anything much either. An example. I enjoyed the experience of being informed by a North American that the Sydney Harbour Bridge connected New Zealand to Australia. What was astounding was that during the same conversation I heard that New Zealand is acorss the border to Finland. When I gently pointed out that both these statements were well erroneous I was informed by other parties to the conversation that the know-nothing who had produced such nonsense was an “expert” and I had better not argue with him as he was always right on such matters. Yeah, Jim sure was right on that one! Had me wondering that if these people accept what he says as the “knowledge”, what else were they accepting…..?
Fear of foreigners. It used to be the Russians. Then it was the Muslim Arabs. Presently it is the Iranians (who are not Arabs at all, but I digress). Eventually it’ll be the Chinese. Always there is some dark force full of furrin’ folk a-comin’. So one encounters expressions of fear- hysterical fear.
Mindless maliciousness and casual malevolence. Gotta bomb some country into the stone age or nuke ‘em till they glow. Down beer at the bar and while watching the latest war on TV. Don’t care that people are being killed, as long as they are foreigners.
Purile racism. Here is but one example. A perfectly restored ’70s Cadillac pulls up at the gasoline station. The owner gets out and begins filling his car with fuel. I comment to my host, “That’s a beautifully restored car. It’s in better condition than when it came off the line.” She says, “Yeah, but its ugly now. Look who’s driving it.” The owner was a black man. My host raised her voice just enough so she could be sure he heard enough to get the gist of what she was conveying. Later I asked if she knew the guy. She didn’t. His colour was enough to set her agin him, whoever he was.
The worst food. Unmentionable what people in the USA accept as “food”. Don’t even mention coffee!
And so it goes.
I’ve found variations of all of this and it runs across the generations in North America in one form or another. The young are every bit as bad as the old, in some ways they are even worse. they live in a state of soft contentment with their biases and ignorance. They do have a sense of entitlement- something their predecessors didn’t suffer from to quite the same extent. What they all share is a terrible stupidity. They’ll yell and curse at anything that shakes up their views- things like facts cause terrible burning resentment, especially when said facts contradict nice warm beliefs. They do not appreciate the realisation that they are living in the equivalent of a fool’s paradise. Meanwhile they are carelessly discarding that which was once a birthright of people in the US- liberty and privacy and opportunity.
Pack of fools. Fools as children, fools as parents, fools as grandparents. All ignorant and intellectually as lazy as they think they can get away with.
Struggle is what is coming. Boomers will likely as not see the triage needle or the nil-by-mouth. The rest are going to get hard times indeed. Mostly they are not skilled or prepared for life as it is going to be for them. The comedian is spot on with his commentary. There is a lot more he should have said, but there it is….
Sione
Sione,
What I’m saying is that even the smart people are having a tough time finding a job. Yes, there are a lot of dumb people around and there always have been. My gauge of when things are really bad is when a smart and industrious person can’t find a job.
Also, there’s plenty of feelings of entitlement among the boomers. Just get them talking about their housing prices and their 401Ks. They act as if they were all entitled to vacation homes by the beach and are now devastated that they may have to retire comfortably in Ohio. The world isn’t right to them unless they can sell the house they bought for $200K 10 years ago for $750K. Spoiled with a sense of entitlement….look no further than the boomers.
i bet your from new zealand to you know we talk our selfs up overseas way worst than any other nation.i know i say all sorts of lies only for fun and swiss girls .
S burgess
Samoa (Republic of) and various locations since (much time in Australia).
Yes, I know how some Kiwis behave “overseas”. An interesting fact is that the vast majority of skilled, productive, industrious Kiwis have departed from New Zealand to superior climes. Out of a population of 4-million some 100,000 vacated permanently over the last three years.
New Zealand remains a strikingly beautiful place, speaking from experience, but it is controlled by the most incompetent of self-satisfied jerks and rortists. It could be argued that those attributes are the predominant ones of the bulk of the population there anyway. The entitlement culture is the culture of the whole dump. OK to live in NZ for a finite time, but don’t get stuck there permanently with the other inmates whatever you do! And don’t let your children spend their entire childhood there for they’ll be ruined forever afterwards.
Sorry.
Sione
In defense, the coffee’s has been getting better; I credit the entrepreneurs at Stumptown, Intelligentsia, and Counter Culture, et al. for this.
JFF
Fair enough.
I did like the Kona from Hawaii that I tried. Does that count?
Perhaps it could be said that exceptions prove the rule!
Sione
I think you’re hanging out in the wrong places. I’ve spent a lot of time in places in Europe that are reputed to have the best food, coffee and the most sophisticated, mentally-vibrant populace in the world. But the best food I’ve ever had has been in New Orleans, and the best coffee in South Florida.
And the Anglo-European tabloid-obsessed football fans one encounters in great numbers over there are not exactly what I’d call the most open-minded people in the world.
Phinn
The best food in the world is in Hungary. There is no competition to traditional Hungarian fare with the exceptions of certain top class restaurants- the excellent El Bulli (Spain, really Catalonian) and the Fat Duck (Gt Britain). Perhaps it could be claimed that the latter is another example of an exception that proves a rule!
As for the claims of what Europeans pretend they are and what most actually are, well that’s another story! In the main, as disappointing as many of them may happen to be, they are more knowledgable than most North Americans. For example, I would never expect to be informed by, say, a Parisian, that the Sydney Harbour Bridge joins New Zealand to Australia, or that New Zealand is adjacent to Canada.
Sione
Just for clarification, the boomers you speak of came from roots that were already planted in this country for a generation or two. My parents are of that same age but were children of immigrants. Neither of them smoked dope in their youth or studied philosophy in college; both were too busy working or taking care of their siblings whilst their (undeducated immigrant) parents were working and chose to study practical subjects in school.
There are MANY of the same age with a similar story.
Re: Mark,
You mean the tractor factory?
Because they are spoiled brats who think they deserve everything, now.
Despite the rough language and his reference to the terrorists, Mr.corolla hits the nail on the head. What we have with much,not all,but much of OWS is Cultural Marxism on steroids.
Why is that comedians/humorists always get things more than real media people?
Because we don’t pay the media to tell us the truth.
Not sayin’ he’s built on and bettered Mises, Hayek and Rothbard, but this man speaks truth. It’s good to see someone stand up and tell it like it is. Any career he might have had in Hollywood is probably over, but maybe it’ll be for the better. You go Adam Carolla!
BTW, I’m glad the kids weren’t around when I played this!
“And, this is what the tragedy of the commons looks like.”
From the link:
“The sheer volume of personal belongings left behind after the early morning Los Angeles Police Department raid”…
Well, I’m thinking these people would have taken much of this with them if they hadn’t been suddenly and forcibly removed.
In any case, looks like the State has found another form of stimulus. Think of all the “personal belongings” that these people will buy again.
The 48 hour warning they got seems like plenty of time.
No doubt. You don’t have to make stuff up against the stasi to make them look bad. They do enough of that on their own. However, every where this OWS rabble goes, they destroy the property.
This so called comedian’s presentation is pretty ignorant. I follow mises.org because they put up some great intellectual stuff. Not only is his presentation ignorant, he misses the point I think.
Also Schoeck’s:
“He shows that slogans such as fairness and equality are often nothing other than the impulse to crush the advantages and merits of others.”
Its not envy, its that people aren’t able to participate and they are not economists. So they can’t hit the nail on the head. They are definitely more articulate than this comedian but they talk fairness and equality. The bottom line is they are sensing barriers to entry that are frustrating.
I like your comment on barriers of entry. See mine above. Carolla seems to have a 2005 view of the economy. Back then, if you didn’t have a job, you were a complete bum. These days even hard-working and talented young people have an extraordinarily tough time entering the job market. It’s not that they don’t want to be the successful guy walking down the street; It’s that they can’t even get an entry-level job outside of flipping burgers to start down that road.
As a young person in America today, I find Carolla’s comments completely out of touch and ridiculous. Here’s a guy who has lived his whole life in periods of 4% to 5% unemployment talking down to kids facing 15% unemployment for multiple years. Just another clueless boomer….
“These days even hard-working and talented young people have an extraordinarily tough time entering the job market”.
I call bullshit to that. There are plenty of excellent opportunities. If you are serious about getting on with life, then be prepared to travel. My family moved to the work. I do it as well (more than once). Many have done it before you and many will do it after you. Hell, much of the USA was built up by people who travelled to the opportunities. Leave your comfort zone and tackle the challenge head-on. Go overseas for a while. Go on a working adventure. That is what young people are supposed to do, isn’t it? Adventures, challenges?
Last time I wass in the USA I met a woman who was about to run out of unemployment benefit payouts. She’d been working at a factory that supplied automobile components for many years. It closed. She’d been well paid but had no savings to speak of. She didn’t have equity in the house in which she lived. She hadn’t done any courses or improved herself in any meaningful way for all those years she had employment. She couldn’t even tell me what the components were that she had been making at the plant (by her description I figure she was fitting piston rings to pistons- I think). So when the jobs ran out, she just stayed put and gradually ran out of money. I asked her whether she had thought of shifting locale to locate new work and a new income stream……no. So she is probably still there rotting and a-moaning. Meanwhile there are plenty of jobs going unfilled elsewhere.
Why not talk to some struggling Mexican immigrants and learn something about how to chase opportunity?
Sione
Sione,
Sure, some of these are good suggestions, but you can’t expect the average person to follow them. The average person is very afraid of moving around for job opportunities. Look at Mexico, itself. The country has a population of 115 million. The vast majority of Mexicans stay within their own country as well. While it’s a noble suggestion, it’s more armchair employment advice rather than a realistic approach for most people. What are those other 115 million Mexicans just plain lazy? Is that why they don’t want to come to US?
This is just like suggestions, “To start your own business since you can’t find a job”. It’s more armchair employment advice. The average person just isn’t going to do that for a large number of reasons.
One more thing, you assume that moving to an area with more jobs means more opportunities. That’s very much armchair thinking too. Not necessarily…. I would argue that finding a job in a city with 8% unemployment where you’re a newcomer is actually much more difficult than locating one in a place with 11% unemployment where you’ve built roots, have a safety net from friends and family, and possess an extensive network of contacts.
To share a story with you, since personal stories of one person seem to be valid examples for you, a good friend of mine did travel to another city to find a job. Thousands of miles from home in search of work, he even had a few friends to stay with for a while. After filling out hundreds of job applications and nine months of unemployment, he found himself living in a homeless shelter without a possession to his name. So there goes your excellent idea. It isn’t as simple as go to another city and get a job.
The armchair answer is go find a job in another city. The reality is that decision could mean sleeping on the streets a few months from then. In a job market, where the average person is unemployed for 6 months, it’s quite a feat to move to another city for employment. Even if the market is better and it takes 3 months to find a job there, that’s a lot of money necessary to stay afloat in a city where you don’t know a soul.
Mark
The advice I submitted is what one does. If the best opportunities and challenges lie elsewhere, including overseas, then one moves to avail oneself of them. This isn’t “armchair advice” by the way. It is realistic. It is about doing, committing action. I have followed this course several times, as have other members of my family, as have friends, colleagues, associates and certain acquaintances.
As far as “average” are concerned, who is an “average person”? Is it you? Is it your friend? Is it someone who just can’t be arsed doing things for himself or herself, especially taking the chance to do something different, something out of the comfort zone, something really tough and demanding? Is it someone with the entitlement mentality?
Doing what you think the notional “average” person does is exactly the trap that is going to prove itself extremely destructive over the coming years. The “average” is presently heading to a place where a far lower standard of living and limited outlook for the future will be the norm- the new “average”. It is the outlier, the independent, the thinker and above all, the person of action who is in the best position to succeed in life. Even when such encounters a failure, at least they have some control over the circumstances and they are in the best position to learn from what they experience.
The person who does what the notional “average” is supposed to require has no control. His, or her, decisions are not self-generated according to knowledge or experience, they are arbitraily adopted from some authority or some entitlement or some mythology in which a great deal of blind faith has been invested. When the failure is encountered by this critter, learning is near impossible. None of the real information upon which to base a decision was found or considered in the first instance. Very difficult to hone one’s abuility to reason logically and improve skills by following a dumb herd. Hard to learn from a stampede into the killing pens at an abatoir. When I was young, my great teacher (now deceased) called such critters “social ballast.”
It is sad to hear of your friend and his experience. I’ll make some comments.
1/. My advice in considering moving to the opportunities is to look at where they actually are. That may mean leaving for another country. Consider it. Right now there are plenty of excellent opportunities. Parochialism and chauvenism blinds the suffer to some of those excellent opportunities. Don’t quit the search at the borders of the USA. The world is a much larger place than merely that part of it.
Starting out with nothing in a new place is difficult, but so what? Life has difficult times. That is how life is. One finds a way.
2/. Your friend need to take stock. What are his actual skills? What can he do that people will voluntarily pay him cash for right away (like today)? Turning up in a city where there are 5,000 unemployed coal miners and looking for a job in the coal mines isn’t a likely winning play I’d wager. But if it was the case that there was a place way over in, say, Australia where they coun’t find enough miners, well then….. Your friend need to start thinking and doing some solid research. In the meantime he has to look to some simple tasks for money- like mowing some lawns, painting someone’s window framing, fixing the neighbour’s car, baby-sitting, tutoring maths or physics or chemistry or history or English language or Mandarin etc etc, finding jobs and tasks others do need help with and will pay some money for. Start with that and build up from there one step at a time. If a place doesn’t work out, take stock again, learn, decide, act. (find out about the Demming wheel and you’ll get the idea)
3/.The woeful conditions of unemployment in the US are getting more and more serious. The blame for that lies at various levels. Nevetheless these things are consequences for previous decisions and actions (or lack thereof)- blind belief in certain national myths, willful ignorance of certain fact, self-satisfied chauvenism and the abandonment of certain principes and ideals (since it is much more convenient to substitite entitlements).
4/. You are reading about Austrian School ideas on this site (and I trust you have been heavily into the important texts avialable freely on this site). No doubt you’d thus be aware of what has been causal in the present destructive circumstances. That makes you a distinctly unaverage person. You have a great edge in knowledge and that will surely assist you in your future endeavours, decisions and actions. If you have the chance, introduce your friend to this site and others (like lewrockwell.com). Heplful factual material abounds.
Sione
Re: Mark,
No, the average person feels entitled to having another secure job which pays the same as the previous one.
Yeah, it’s not reasonable to think that you will find more jobs where there are more jobs. I mean, what the hell is Sione thinking, right? Right? RIGHT?
Your over generalization is just as bad as Corolla’s. No, there are lots of spoiled, whining socialist wannabe punks in the group. THAT’s who he’s talking about, is my guess.
Sione,
I don’t think you have a very realistic view of risk and return. Risk means that things can go wrong. Seriously wrong. Your view of my friend moving is a great example. You immediately assume that he did something wrong -that his skills weren’t right or his city of choice wasn’t correct. But guess what Sione …..in the real world, things do wrong even if you tried your hardest and made the best-laid plans. And in a world of 15% unemployment, they go wrong often. This isn’t the fairly tale world of the last few decades.
In my opinion, you have a bit of a spoiled world view. It’s one where you try hard enough, work hard enough, and be smart enough and things will work out for you. The world that I’ve seen since the 2008 crash for young people is one where you can play all of your cards right and still end up at a homeless shelter. That’s a world of perpetual 15% unemployment and that’s what older generations just don’t understand because they’ve never experienced it.
Mark
Your opinion is utterly worthless since you clearly lack the real experience to be taken at all seriously.
Let’s consider the bleeding bloody obvious. If your friend’s objective was to find a job, then he did more than a little something wrong. Perhaps his skills were not correct and/or the city of choice was not correct for him to succeed. Whatever the case, what he was doing, and how he acted, was definately not the correct path to obtain the job which he sought. Whatever he was doing, or failing to do, the result of his activity was that after nine months he had failed utterly to achieve the objective. He needs to take stock of his skills, of what he is doing, of where he is, of what is going on in the world etc. He needs to learn from the failure/s he has experienced and work out why he fails and what to do about it- what to change. In other words he needs to review his attributes and circumstances, as well as carefully analyse those of the world around him, and then make a new plan of action. That is what one HAS to do- that or remain in a failure mode for the rest of a rather limited, unpleasant existence.
Try very, very hard to understand this Mark. In the real world, when things go wrong independent intelligent adults LEARN from the experience. Then they pick themselves up and try again with the lessons of their previous experiences clearly in mind. They act to avoid failure by not repeating the actions that led to it (consider what Einstein said about the mindset of repeating the activities that led to a failure and expecting a different result). They don’t cry and whinge about how tough the world is and then give up (doing that is sure and permanent failure). They don’t cry and whinge, they go out and do!
Moving on. I couldn’t give a toss how hard you “try” or how hard your friend “tried”. No-one else really cares a whit either. If what you are doing is not good enough, it is not good enough. If it is failure, it is failure. You need to do better. That you planned and exerted yourself (although I doubt you have any idea what solid prolonged exertion of effort is actually like) is all very nice, but that is not what measures success (although it can be a significant component in its achievement).
Many, many peple turn in shonky work or deliver a poor service. When pulled up on their deficient performance they often respond about how hard they tried. They tried- so what. That is a gutless meaningless excuse. Fact is, they failed. Their labour was deficient in some way. What they delivered was deficient. Understand they were deficient and need to change. It was not good enough, what they did. It was a failure. Learn why and improve. The alternative is continued failure and the consequences that is guaranteed to deliver.
Take home lesson: learn to learn, change and improve. No one else can do it for you. Don’t expect them to.
–
As far as risk and return is concerned. You are always at risk. Even by doing nothing you are at risk of potential loss.
BTW where I reside presently there is not perpetual 15% unemployment. Some more advice little man, you really do need to look outside your limited ignorance and find out about the rest of the world.
Sione
Sione,
Let’s get this straight first. I’ve personally filled over half a thousand applications in this recession. So, I have the experience, and I did finally land a job. Not the best in the world, but it’s something. It’s you that probably hasn’t ever looked for a job in this sort of environment before. If anyone is inexperienced here, it’s you.
Second, of course, if something doesn’t work, then you try something else. If that doesn’t work, then you try something new and repeat. DUH!!! When you’ve been unemployed for 9 months, you’ve gone through this process at least 100 times. If you’re trying the same thing for 9 months straight with no results, you’re an idiot.
What I’m saying is that the unemployment can be so large that your efforts really don’t matter that much. They help, but the macroeconomics become more important than your effort. Think about the Great Depression with unemployment rates of 25%. Were those people unemployed because they weren’t trying something new? I mean that’s the logical conclusion from your point of view. If you were unemployed during the Great Depression, it’s because you refused to try something new, move somewhere new, or start a business. That’s a ridiculous point of view and disrespectful to those who suffered under that macroeconomic blunder.
When unemployment reaches very high levels, you can stay unemployed for a very long time even if you’re trying new things, moving to new places, and picking up new skills. People like you who grew up in easy labor markets just don’t get that. You were spoiled rotten by an easier world. And I’m not complaining about the situation. I just want people to have an accurate view of the situation.
Yes, there’s some people out there who are bums. There are also people trying new things, moving to new cities, and working on new skills. They are also not finding jobs in many cases. In this job market, it’s entirely possible to be unemployed for a year despite all your best efforts.
Your point of view is very offensive to people who are really trying their hardest out there and are doing everything in their power to find a job. It’s especially offensive considering that it’s coming from someone who has never seen a really tough labor market for more than a year in their whole lives.
So inexperience….give me a break. I’ve filled out the hundreds of applications in this job market and you haven’t. May I share your own advice with you. Stop being stuck in your own world and learn from the experience of others.
You can either learn from my comments or you can continue inflating your ego by relating your job experiences in a 4% unemployment world to a younger generation. If that really makes you feel good, go for it. However, view is not reality. This is my last message.
Mark
Ah, so it wasn’t your mate that was unemployed, it was you after all. Well, my comments stand, as does the advice. Further, you assume a great deal about the experiences and circumstances of other people who you do not even know. Worse you do it from a position of you own self absorbtion. This is the trait of a person of limited experience and obtuse ignorance. You’d do well to LISTEN and LEARN rather than making lots of noise whinging and yelping.
Quoting: “I’ve personally filled over half a thousand applications in this recession.”
Assuming that you are not exaggerating and it took you nine months of this activity to land your first job, it means on average better than two applications per day, every day for nine months. Yeah, well OK then. You eventually got there, a bit slow but you got this job. Nice one. Persistence got you something. You have made a start in life.
Now, what did you learn during this initial process? Would it take you as long to get your next job if you had to start over? What would you do better? What didn’t you know about when you started on your quest? Also, do you know what are the employment seeking conditions like in, say, Perth? What about over in Hong Kong? How about Hyderabad? What about Suva? Or _______________ (put in a location you have reseached thoroughly)?
Quoting you re your job, “Not the best in the world, but it’s something”.
So what are you going to do about it? Ask yourself, what is the plan now? Where to from here? How do you move into a more desirable position, heading for the place you want to be regarding nature of work, quality of life, remuneration, professional development, career, travel, self-improvement, enjoyment, satisfaction, interest etc etc or havn’t you thought about any of that…. What IS the plan? Do you even have one? What are your goals in this life? What are you learning in your new situation? Where is this going to take you?
Quoting: “It’s you that probably hasn’t ever looked for a job in this sort of environment before.”
This is an example of you making assumptions from your own blind ignorance. You just do not know. You are not in posession of any of the relavant information necessary to make such a claim. So, you make up fantasy to suit your own feelings. What you have managed to do is demonstrate a childish foolishness. Unfortunately, in your self absorbtion, this is habitual. Time to ditch that approach. It is erroneous and makes you silly.
For your education, my experiences include travelling to a new country and locating work in the absence of contacts, language, industry specific skills, required qualifications, reputation, referees, relevant background and history… Didn’t take me nine months either. Also, you may care to look up the unemployment numbers for Pacific Islands. The rate of unemployment has been multiples of what you are whining about. It was high in my youth. It is nearly as difficult presently.
Quoting; “If anyone is inexperienced here, it’s you.”
You are making a statement in the total absence of knowledge. Fool!
Quoting; “you’ve gone through this process at least 100 times.”
Hold up there! First it was “half a thousand” times and now it’s “at least 100 times”. Hmmm. You lack a certain honest consistency…
Quoting; “If you’re trying the same thing for 9 months straight with no results, you’re an idiot.”
What about trying 8 months without result? Does that make you an idiot? Or how about 7 months? Or 6? Why is the magic cut-off for idiocy set at 9 months?
Self-absorbtion.
Think on it.
“What I’m saying is that the unemployment can be so large that your efforts really don’t matter that much.”
Depends on what your efforts actually are.
Quoting; “They help, but the macroeconomics become more important than your effort. Think about the Great Depression with unemployment rates of 25%.”
You are attempting to make excuses for yourself. Nevertheless, even you have to admit that employment conditions of present USA, as poor as they have become, are not those of the ’30s Depression (not yet anyway). Don’t pretend that you are experiencing such a situation. That’s a ridiculous point of view and disrespectful to those who suffered under that macroeconomic blunder (that of the ’30s Depression). Further, you have vanishingly little in common with the people who lived through the conditions of that period. Implying that you do is indeed desrespectful to those who did suffer at the time. You have it easy by comparison.
Quoting; “People like you who grew up in easy labor markets just don’t get that. You were spoiled rotten by an easier world.”
You are making assumptions about people (like me) who you don’t know anything about (again). Try to understand that you are not in the position to make statements about anything without holding the specific knowledge to make them.
And once again, try to understand that the USA, a mere portion of North America, is not the entire world. Beyond the borders of the USA exists the vast majority of the planet and its people. The conditions that persist in the rest of the world are not identical to those of the USA. In many, many regions life is much more difficult than what you have experienced or are even aware of. Easier world indeed!
Quoting; “And I’m not complaining about the situation.”
Sure reads that way.
Quoting; “Your point of view is very offensive to people who are really trying their hardest out there and are doing everything in their power to find a job. It’s especially offensive considering that it’s coming from someone who has never seen a really tough labor market for more than a year in their whole lives.”
You are such a toss pot.
Quoting; “May I share your own advice with you. Stop being stuck in your own world and learn from the experience of others.”
What an incredicble hypocrit you are! You really, really, really should take your own advice.
Quoting; “This is my last message.”
Toys out of cot! Ears switched off!
Do try to grow up!
Sione
Sione – my god you’re a tool.
Sione just totally has that “I am right therefore you are wrong” mindset. There is no point arguing with the person that believes, “If you do this, then this will happen.” Lots of people doing “shonky” work are holding jobs and getting paid while hard workers or smart people are left out. Not everybody who jumps in the lake will drown, but some will. blah, blah, blah. . .
Dear Virginia
You’ve missed the point.
My objection to Mark’s viewpoint is that it is based around the notion that other people (me, earlier generations etc) had it easier than does he and concludes that hence such do not understand the present situation he finds himself in. He refers to “a world of perpetual 15% unemployment and that’s what older generations just don’t understand because they’ve never experienced it.” That nonsense is purile bullshit. It is based on pig ignorance and a wilfull chauvenism. It just isn’t true at all.
Virginia, for a start, the world does not end at the borders of the USA. There are plenty of other places that happen to be located outside those borders. The people in many of those places enjoy conditions far worse than those presently encountered within the USA by the likes of Mark. Also there are places where he could live a far superior lifestyle to the one he enjoys presently. Of course, Mark writes as though he has no idea about this. If he does know about, it he carefully pretends it not worth consideration, especially since it contradicts his stated view.
Anyway, two take-home messages are that there are plenty of people who have had it far worse than does Mark, presently, in the immediate past and in the more distant past (and they are far better experienced to commment on hardship than is he). Also, there are tremendous opportunities available to those who have the courage to rise to the challenges involved. As it happens, some of the best opportunities for a young man lie right outside the USA at the present time. Again, Mark pretends such are not worth consideration or do not exist in the world- not in “his” little world anyway.
The issue to concentrate on is this. One must deal with adversity and challenge actively and focus on doing this, rather than focussing on how bad one’s present circumstances may happen to be (BTW, that happens to be my main point).
–
For the sake of discussion let’s assume Mark is correct that the whole entire world is presently enjoying 15% unemployment (it isn’t but let’s assume it, since he does). That means that there is 85% employment. That means the vast majority of people who can work are in employment presently.
Next ask this. Are 100% of jobs filled by those 85%? If they are, there would be no advertising for candidates to fill vacant positions. There would be no opportunities whatsoever for anyone not presently employed to apply and gain a position (not unless somone vacated a job- retirement, dismissal, resignation, illness, disablement, death etc- it would be a zero sum situation). Let’s go further and assume that it is near impossible to get a regular job at this instant anywhere on the planet (since right now it is extremely difficult to get to the head of the queue lining up to replace someone who has vacated his or her job). In other words the 85% employed are near static and therefore there are vanishingly few or even no openings at all for the 15% unemployed. Would that mean there be no opportunities at all? Would all work, all wants that anyone could possibly have, be met by the 85%? Would it be correct that the entire needs and wants of all people would be sated by the activities of the 85%?
Think hard on that. If you answer yes, then indeed there would be no opportunities anywhere on the planet for Mark or anyone like him. None. Nada. Nilch. Nothing. Zero. All the tasks, all the work, all the demands of everyone would be satisfied by the 85%. That is the notion that you would be accepting if answering in the affirmative. It is, of course, a terribly self-contradictory idea.
All possible tasks to fill all wants are not presently being accomplished. Far from it. There is much work that can be undertaken for gainful profit. If necessary, start with the simplest stuff. Fix a chair for a neighbour. Cut firewood. Paint. Walk the dog. Babysit. Do cleaning work. Whatever. Start and build up from there. Hell, I know it aint easy. Just make a start though. THAT is the trick. It doesn’t take nine months to either.
For instance, I remember one guy who started by reading to people in a rest home. He volunteered to do it and he was unpaid. Then one afternoon the staff served him lunch and a short while later on he was offerred a position. From there he progressed. Ended up owning several companies. Still reads to the elderly when he can. Started off and come on in.
The fact is that for a young person there are fantastic opportunities abounding right now. For example, were I without dependents I’d likely already have departed for Mongolia or Siberia to get in on the opportunities that are opening up right at this very moment. I may yet go (if the temptation remains great enough when my contracts complete) and take the kids along one and all. Huge rewards. Tremendous adventures. It is the making of a person, such experiences.
I pointed out a few things to Mark. They were to take stock of one’s skills etc and also to take a very hard look for where the opportunities are INCLUDING THOSE WHICH LIE OUTSIDE THE BORDERS OF THE USA. I suggested he be aware that moving oneself to where the opportunities be found is a good thing to do (he rather churlishly responded by writing that such was mere “armchair advice” and dismissed the option at outset, probably solely on the basis that he does not want to arsed looking outside the USA or, at least, somewhere where he aint). I recommended digging through this site to find out about how the economy is operating and why. I warned that sadly things are getting worse in the USA. The deterioration is not over yet- not by a long shot. Perhaps that is another good reason to take a real good look around and to seriously think about one’s plan for life (as in, where can one achieve what one would like to achieve, where lies the best opportunity to perfect one’s life).
Is appears he’d rather focus on how with the best of efforts some people can fail. That reads as an excuse and a poor one at that. Sure people fail. So what. The achievers pick themselves up, learn from the experience and try for what they want again. You are not going to be 100% successful with everything you attempt in this life. No-one is. There will be tough times and set-backs and even disasters. It is what you do next that counts.
Sione
But my point, and I do see the point you are trying to make, is that you seem to generalize that, if a person doesn’t succeed, it is because they are not trying hard enough. I do not think, even in the best of worlds or countries, or cities, or towns, or, in my case, households, that is ALWAYS true. I do not THINK that is ALWAYS true. It seems you must insist it is true. I just can’t get on board with that, but I am truly glad it works out for you. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005KN6S4E
It is so totally lovely that we have these venues for self-expression. I love this place.
Thank you all for your comments and continued participation.
Virginia
If you actually do see the point I am “trying to make”, then address it directly, don’t re-structure it into what you think I “seem to generalize”. Deal with the substantive. My point, as opposed to the idea you thought up and erroneously pretended as mine, is separate & different from what you raised. Substitution of one for the other is not valid. As previously stated, you are missing the point.
Specifically, I do not generalise that if a person is not trying hard enough then that is why they do not succeed. What I actually did point out to Mark was while “trying hard” may be a component of successful achievement, is not the measure of its attainment. In other words “trying hard” is not a guarantee of success. There is more to it than that.
So how do you get from there to your idea that “you seem to generalize that, if a person doesn’t succeed, it is because they are not trying hard enough”? Seriously, how? Because what you are pretending is not on point. Far from it. Further, I did argue that what is really important is what one does AFTER experiencing a setback or a failure. For goodness sake, take a look at what was actually written and think on that.
In regards to the idea you ascribe to me you allege that, “It seems you must insist it is true.” Well, I didn’t present the idea you erroneously ascribe to me in the first instance. I certainly didn’t insist such was true either. No need for me to do that, as it wasn’t my idea. What is going on here is that you are debating yourself. Please read what I actually did write and consider that material, not what you’d have imagined I “seemed” to write or what you’d have liked for me to have written.
I’d like to have a conversation or share a debate with you, but please don’t be into substitutions. Consider what I am actually saying instead.
Sione
To talk notions of “fairness” and “equality” is to establish a false premise. They are subjective judgments and have no place in a serious scientific understanding of economic activity and outcomes. That is where you and these OWSer are just terribly wrong, and that is why politicians for decades have been working to satisfy demands to enforce subjective notions of fairness and equality with discretionary fiscal and monetary policies that create the problems people complain about in the first place.
One more thing….you know what was wrong with the unemployed during the Great Depression? They got too many baseball trophies growing up. What a bunch of lazy bums! Why didn’t they just get a job like their parents in the roaring 20s.
Re: Mark,
That they were actively looking for work instead of sitting around in tents bitching about it like now?
Those traitors to the cause!
He lost me when he started talking about the ‘terrists’. Nonsense line about them being jealous of our fake boobies? I guess history started in 9/10/2001
He nails the entitlement attitude though, but I think he leaves out the fact that the banksters and their allies also feel entitled and have no problem razing the earth to maintain their grip.
Noah
You need to actually meet and speak with some of those he refers to. The attitude is that white women are all cheap and easy (or should be). Of course when the mindless little turd that thinks this way gets rebuked, he get’s into exactly the mode described. Violence is a possible result.
SIone
That’s not the idea I got from his rant. I felt like he was saying that 9/11 happened because the terrorists were jealous that americans were driving mercedes’ or some shit.
That was definitely part of it. You guys are every bit as ignorant as the other side. It’s both. Our foreign policy is definitely a big part of it, as well as our way of life.
integral
He made it quite clear that it is. Listen again.
Sione
frankly i don’t know how some of my generation in occupy is worst than the baby boomers on the streets striking for massive pensions who’s burdens that’s gona be that’s ok just put on there kids tab along with the costs of the wars bank bail outs and some solar job that lasted a year or 2 we have that right .seems a low point for this site putting this rant on as insite .the main problems we face is a problem of ownership or property. the idea that one man is entitled to another’s money property.or can tell others what they can do with their property .that idea is at the root of every human crisis we are facing now.not some trophy i got as a kid and gave no value 2 when i got it.lets keep the eye on the target and if we divide men let it be by their actions not age.
This entry lacks any erudition. The expletives destroyed the continuity of the interview. It doesn’t speak well for Mises or Austrian economics to have these low quality postings.
I think many respondents are missing the point about jobs. Find a niche, and create your own small business. The Austrian-schooled, of all people, should understand this.
Erudition means “extensive knowledge acquired chiefly from books; profound, recondite, or bookish learning.”
I’m familiar with Adam Corolla; he’s sharp but book-learned he’s definitely not. But, neither were George Carlin or Bill Hicks for that matter. Having read books does not mean you necessarily possess knowlege, insight, or wisdom.
Are you sure that’s the right term you want to use?
This is more armchair unemployment advice that doesn’t apply for the average person. There are currently 13.3 unemployed people not counting those who dropped out of the workforce. How many of those:
1. Are smart enough to face the challenges of entrepreneurship…
2. Have a skill in a market that isn’t overly saturated already….
3. Have a business idea that could work…
4. Have the business skills and savvy to manage a business…
5. Have the capital to start the said business…
Entrepreneurs play a very special role in society and posts like this pretend that business ideas and businesses are just low-hanging fruits to be picked from a tree. There’s a reason that many companies have one entrepreneur and 500 salaried workers under him. Few people are capable of entrepreneurship in good times or bad. Maybe out of that group of 13.3 million unemployed, a million could start some kind of small business and that’s being optimistic, but it’s really not realistic for the other 12.3 million.
There’s a lot of smart and hard-working people out there who just aren’t entrepreneurs. Look no further than many corporate jobs for examples.
Perhaps the point being made is that of those people who are capable very few are trying.
There are a lot of dumbasses who studied {insert grievance group name here} studies and are out $100,000 and want to know why? Corolla may have been to general, but maybe, just maybe, his rant was about those people. Ya think?
Only 13.3 unemployed people? Wow, maybe intervention economics ain’t so bad after all! ;-P
Small businesses are so overrated.
Having started my own businesses since I was seven or eight, beginning with shining shoes of all things, I believe most people could start their own businesses. Through rigorous work and savings millions of Americans and immigrants have done. Give it a try. Paraphrasing Henry Ford and some other hard-working folks, “If you think you can, or you can’t–you’re probably right.”
Brush up on your George Carlin… He used the dictionary nearly as often as the F-word. His “coitus” and “seven dirty words” sketches employed significant erudition on these matters that demonstrated and demolished the frivolity of censors and social norms.
And for you people complaining about the economy–How is that workin’ fo’ ya?
I got the feeling I was listening to Rush Limbaugh.
For those upset with Corolla because, well dammit, you know of a lot of hardworking people having troubles finding jobs. Maybe he wasn’t talking about them, but rather the multitudes of {insert grievance group name here} studies majors who have just realized the party is over and that they owe close to a $100,000 for majoring in something that has no marketable skills. I’ve been among these groups and there are multitudes of these people. Most of them happen to be socialist/communist wannabes, also. So, Corolla’s rant directed at them was perfect in pitch.
We can only evaluate what he actually did say. How do we know that he wasn’t talking about the hard-working ones? He’s making a vast unfounded generalization of a whole generation and that’s part of the problem.
Also, people have been majoring in dumb things for the past 40 years or more. So that criticism doesn’t really apply either. And what about the baby boomers themselves. Were they really that hard-working? Did Carolla spend his life working 80 hours in a coal mine? I don’t think so.
Re: Mark,
Yeah, but it’s only now that the dumb choice is catching up to them.
Well said indeed.
Frank
I’m not your God and you are not very eloquent.
Sione
Grammarians to the rescue. Please.
Virginia
If you have an argument to make why don’t you state it instead of sniping from the sidelines?
Seriously.
Sione
Post of Dec. 06, 2011, above. Seriously.
My eloquence or lack of it is not the point, your self-important tooliness is the point.
“If you have an argument to make why don’t you state it”
She did. If you say to someone who runs a business “if you spend less than you take in you’ll make money”, this is not advice. Or if Shaq O’Neal takes a basketball class and demonstrates a slam dunk to kids and says “all you have to do is jump sufficiently high to get the ball above the rim then slam it down”, this isn’t advice or helpful, its entirely useless. Like your comment.
Frank
In your case, lack of eloquence is the point. After all, look at what you contributed. Then off you go again and start off with yet more of the same banality. Pitiful.
Virginia certainly does not need the likes of you to argue on her behalf. Anyway, had you bothered to read the thread you’d have noticed that I’d responded to her comments earlier. I’d be interested to hear from her should she wish to comment further.
Returning to you. I’ll be charitable and deal with the remainder of what you have written as though it were substantive (which it isn’t- you’ve missed the point).
Quoting: If you say to someone who runs a business “if you spend less than you take in you’ll make money”, this is not advice.
It is advice. Whether it is considered useful advice or not is a different matter. That usefulness would depend upon the context within which the advice was offered and who it was offered to. For example, if the person operating the business is starting out and has been making avoidable losses due to not understanding the fundamental nature of what he is engaged in, then there are good and appropriate reasons to remind him of what he needs to be doing in order for his business to survive. Further, it is not unknown for accountants and commmercial consultants state exactly the comment to their clients. It is, of course, this very advice that should have been heeded by many, many, many people throughout the USA in recent times (in the financial services sector, banking sector, throughout government, by lenders, developers, mortgage brokers, borrowers, householders etc etc etc- seems like a lot of your fellow subjects “forgot” this very maxim of basic business practice- good advice to keep front of mind).
Quoting: Or if Shaq O’Neal takes a basketball class and demonstrates a slam dunk to kids and says “all you have to do is jump sufficiently high to get the ball above the rim then slam it down”, this isn’t advice or helpful, its entirely useless.
Really? Again, it would depend upon the context of the situation. When teaching kids how to slam dunk he may well be inclined to say something like that while demonstrating what to do. How would YOU know whether that be helpful or not? It depends on who is in the class, what level they are at, the rest of what Mr O’Neal has been saying to them during the lesson, what he is demonstrating to them as he teaches and the specific context of the situation. Perhaps advice would be useless for Frank the weenie, but then again, that would likely be more to do with the shortcomings of Frank the weenie rather than the quality of the advice delivered by Mr O’Neal.
Next we come to something you really ought to carefully consider. What you are attempting to do is argue by employing (someone else’s) analogy. Always remember that analogy is similar to, not the same as. Be very wary of employing analogy. Be even more wary of employing someone else’s analogy, especially when you (Frank) don’t understand the issue at enquiry in the first instance. And THAT is some more good advice for you to follow. Think on it.
One more quick thing. If you, Frank, actually have a real argument to make why don’t YOU come out with it and state it? Is it that you can’t, since you have nothing to offer other than a collection of arbitrary feelings and a grab bag of some other person’s ideas?
Sione
But I did present a counter point to your earlier charges and you did not notice it. Frank did, and I thank him for noticing and remarking. Let’s move on, folks.
No Virginia, I did notice. Check the time tags. Initially I responded to each of your posts separately, one immediately after the other. In the second instance I was interested in what you were thinking when you made the grammarians comment- frustrated you didn’t come right out with it.
Frank, well, he didn’t bother to notice I’d already responded to your earlier contribution (upthread) by the time he started flogging himself about it hither and yon. Hey, could it be Frank and Mark are related? Maybe even the same contributor employing two tag lines?
Cheers
Sione
Sorry, not Mark no – but nice try at avoiding facing what the actual scenario is, which is that of a lurker who just felt your tone and comments so self-congratulatory and point missing that he had to point out what a tool you were being. And your last similarly verbose comment, clinging to the idea that your words were “advice”, like you’re some benevolent uncle, and not mental self-pleasuring and belittling of others to boost your own ego, says it all. You are a windbag.
frank
Your apology is accepted.
The scenario is that you have demonstrated you, frank, are completely unable to contribute anything of substance to the debate. All you are doing is engaging in a little smearing and silly name calling. Beyond that, not much really. Pitiful little thing you are. Berift of original thought- an example of intellectual emptiness. Pathetic.
Advice for you: Listen carefully to what Carollar says. He is describing you.
Sione
Cuz when he posted you hadn’t replied to my “I THINK” comment. It wasn’t up when I said, “Seriously”. Seriously. This is almost the same as trying to discuss something with my husband.
As far as Frank is concerned, anyone rising to my own meager self-defense is okay with me.
So very far off-topic for this venue.
Moving on. . .
No Virginia, you are in error again.
You posted your allegation at 12:06am. By the time Frank referred to it, at 4:49am, more than four hours had elapsed. I’d already posted rebuttal to you earlier, at 2:23am, explaining you had missed the point. You contributed the “Seriously” post, much later still inthe evening. Seems you’d missed that rebuttal…
Arguing with your husband? What happens should he be correct about some issue or other? Do you miss that and “move on”?
frank is unworthy of your support or thanks. You sure don’t need him to be associated with you. Anyway, you are thoughtful and eloquent enough to defend yourself more than adequately (judging by the posts you have made over recent times).
Sione
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