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	<title>Comments on: This I Believe: Status-Seeking and Social Fabric</title>
	<atom:link href="http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: Horst Muhlmann</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810801</link>
		<dc:creator>Horst Muhlmann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 16:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810801</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;It&#039;s not clear to me how charitable giving is any more or less distortionary than government spending or any other sort of largely non-markety behavior.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

For one thing, the Salvation Army guy in the Santa suit doesn&#039;t point a gun at my head.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>It&#8217;s not clear to me how charitable giving is any more or less distortionary than government spending or any other sort of largely non-markety behavior.</p></blockquote>
<p>For one thing, the Salvation Army guy in the Santa suit doesn&#8217;t point a gun at my head.</p>
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		<title>By: Nile BP</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810782</link>
		<dc:creator>Nile BP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 12:22:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810782</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Excellent point. Status seeking is morally reprehensible behavior because it invites one to focus on appearance over substance, short term facelifts over long term solutions, talk over action. As long as a person does that with his own resources, it&#039;s no one else&#039;s problem.

But those are characteristics that we commonly associate with government, and it&#039;s no coincidence. Politics is status seeking leveraged by a society&#039;s institutionalized network. A &quot;perfect libertarian&quot; society where such behavior is tolerated and even encouraged is more vulnerable to becoming a political society than one where showing off is viewed with suspicion. One more interesting way in which morals and political economy are intertwined.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent point. Status seeking is morally reprehensible behavior because it invites one to focus on appearance over substance, short term facelifts over long term solutions, talk over action. As long as a person does that with his own resources, it&#8217;s no one else&#8217;s problem.</p>
<p>But those are characteristics that we commonly associate with government, and it&#8217;s no coincidence. Politics is status seeking leveraged by a society&#8217;s institutionalized network. A &#8220;perfect libertarian&#8221; society where such behavior is tolerated and even encouraged is more vulnerable to becoming a political society than one where showing off is viewed with suspicion. One more interesting way in which morals and political economy are intertwined.</p>
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		<title>By: VoCo</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810753</link>
		<dc:creator>VoCo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 06:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The problem with charity is the difficulty in determining the &quot;return on investment.&quot; In a for-profit enterprise it&#039;s simple, the business is profitable or it isn&#039;t. Without a profit and loss statement, how can you determine whether you are helping people? It&#039;s possible, but more difficult.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with charity is the difficulty in determining the &#8220;return on investment.&#8221; In a for-profit enterprise it&#8217;s simple, the business is profitable or it isn&#8217;t. Without a profit and loss statement, how can you determine whether you are helping people? It&#8217;s possible, but more difficult.</p>
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		<title>By: CrisisMaven</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810729</link>
		<dc:creator>CrisisMaven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2011 00:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810729</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah status! Is it four wheel, how much horse-power and can I stick it onto my credit card?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah status! Is it four wheel, how much horse-power and can I stick it onto my credit card?</p>
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		<title>By: DixieFlatline</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810708</link>
		<dc:creator>DixieFlatline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 20:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;Project idea for someone looking for a paper: estimate the rate of return on the Salvation Army holiday bell-ringing campaign.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Only an academic would recommend such a complete waste of time.

Most of us are not Koch funded.  We have to do stuff that other people are willing to pay for.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Project idea for someone looking for a paper: estimate the rate of return on the Salvation Army holiday bell-ringing campaign.</p></blockquote>
<p>Only an academic would recommend such a complete waste of time.</p>
<p>Most of us are not Koch funded.  We have to do stuff that other people are willing to pay for.</p>
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		<title>By: boniek</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810686</link>
		<dc:creator>boniek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:15:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You are onto something. Dark side of charity is that it creates dependant and entitled people.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are onto something. Dark side of charity is that it creates dependant and entitled people.</p>
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		<title>By: Rory Carmichael</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810631</link>
		<dc:creator>Rory Carmichael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Nov 2011 00:25:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810631</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s not clear to me how charitable giving is any more or less distortionary than government spending or any other sort of largely non-markety behavior.  I mean, I guess you could look at charities as a sort of entertainment service, which sells social status and good feelings to wealthy patrons, and is forced as a business expense to spend much or most of the remaining money on building infrastructure, making investments, and providing food to people in poverty, but fundamentally they aren&#039;t profit maximizing competitive enterprises and therefore aren&#039;t really driven by the markets the way private firms are.  If charity (even some kinds of charity) can be good than government (or at least some kinds of government) can also be good.  I guess since government isn&#039;t voluntarily funded it&#039;s even less &quot;markety&quot; than a charity is, but it still seems like charitable giving can be extremely distortionary.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s not clear to me how charitable giving is any more or less distortionary than government spending or any other sort of largely non-markety behavior.  I mean, I guess you could look at charities as a sort of entertainment service, which sells social status and good feelings to wealthy patrons, and is forced as a business expense to spend much or most of the remaining money on building infrastructure, making investments, and providing food to people in poverty, but fundamentally they aren&#8217;t profit maximizing competitive enterprises and therefore aren&#8217;t really driven by the markets the way private firms are.  If charity (even some kinds of charity) can be good than government (or at least some kinds of government) can also be good.  I guess since government isn&#8217;t voluntarily funded it&#8217;s even less &#8220;markety&#8221; than a charity is, but it still seems like charitable giving can be extremely distortionary.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce Koerber</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810627</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce Koerber</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:47:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810627</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is certain that when people no longer want government to serve as a corrupt intermediary, syphoning off efficacy, then envy will moderate and that moderation will accomodate charity. This is the process of ethics formation that occurs in an unhampered economy.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is certain that when people no longer want government to serve as a corrupt intermediary, syphoning off efficacy, then envy will moderate and that moderation will accomodate charity. This is the process of ethics formation that occurs in an unhampered economy.</p>
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		<title>By: Art Carden</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810624</link>
		<dc:creator>Art Carden</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 23:00:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810624</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks. Fixing it now.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks. Fixing it now.</p>
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		<title>By: Kid Salami</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810611</link>
		<dc:creator>Kid Salami</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:20:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810611</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;charity is great, but not all charitable endeavors are created equal. There is an opportunity cost associated with using resources for one charitable purpose and not another, and careful economics can help us maximize the bang we get from our charitable bucks. I explain further here.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Your article you link to makes good points, ones wasted on the people who I think give most of the charity money.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The money we are giving to charity has to come from somewhere, and it isn’t always clear that it will do more good, socially, if it is given to someone than it would if it were left in a bank account and lent to an entrepreneur....If you just want to give people stuff, though, then your charity is most effective when it is given in secret.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I do in fact think that the kind of charity which dominates - where you give to a central organisation that is large rather than local and small - is actively counter-productive. They cater for the incentive of most givers ie. social status - they are buying a pass card to the conversations at dinner parties they go to and the more public and self-designated do-gooding the organisation is, the more value the status seeker gets. 

The charities who don&#039;t have time to be public because they spend their money and time on helping people instead of marketing and collecting expenses receipts don&#039;t usually provide the same bang for the buck for the Guardian readers. Imagine a charity lobbying for the repeal of the minimum wage for example? 

And those who are genuine but just don&#039;t know anything about economics end up giving to these large organisations too, because they&#039;re there and convenient.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Unless you’re explicitly trying to change people’s incentives, you do the most good when your charity is kept quiet.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed - the celebrities are always &quot;raising awareness&quot;. How much awareness raising do we need - what is the economic calculation that says to someone weighing up some possible awareness raising &quot;it&#039;s ok, we have a enough awareness raising, please pick up a shovel?&quot;. 

I think none - I think large charity organisations are frauds and that all money would be better in the bank (not the banks we have now ideally but you get my drift) providing capital to allow people in general to have cheaper stuff and have more free money to help people they want to more directly and locally. 

I think this idea should be promoted and the givers who are not just phoneys might wake up and change their ways. Might - I&#039;m not holding my breath. If I ever get invited to one of the Guardian readers social events again, I think I&#039;ll go and suffer the wonder-government stuff just to make this argument to see what response I get.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>charity is great, but not all charitable endeavors are created equal. There is an opportunity cost associated with using resources for one charitable purpose and not another, and careful economics can help us maximize the bang we get from our charitable bucks. I explain further here.</p></blockquote>
<p>Your article you link to makes good points, ones wasted on the people who I think give most of the charity money.</p>
<blockquote><p>The money we are giving to charity has to come from somewhere, and it isn’t always clear that it will do more good, socially, if it is given to someone than it would if it were left in a bank account and lent to an entrepreneur&#8230;.If you just want to give people stuff, though, then your charity is most effective when it is given in secret.</p></blockquote>
<p>I do in fact think that the kind of charity which dominates &#8211; where you give to a central organisation that is large rather than local and small &#8211; is actively counter-productive. They cater for the incentive of most givers ie. social status &#8211; they are buying a pass card to the conversations at dinner parties they go to and the more public and self-designated do-gooding the organisation is, the more value the status seeker gets. </p>
<p>The charities who don&#8217;t have time to be public because they spend their money and time on helping people instead of marketing and collecting expenses receipts don&#8217;t usually provide the same bang for the buck for the Guardian readers. Imagine a charity lobbying for the repeal of the minimum wage for example? </p>
<p>And those who are genuine but just don&#8217;t know anything about economics end up giving to these large organisations too, because they&#8217;re there and convenient.</p>
<blockquote><p>Unless you’re explicitly trying to change people’s incentives, you do the most good when your charity is kept quiet.</p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed &#8211; the celebrities are always &#8220;raising awareness&#8221;. How much awareness raising do we need &#8211; what is the economic calculation that says to someone weighing up some possible awareness raising &#8220;it&#8217;s ok, we have a enough awareness raising, please pick up a shovel?&#8221;. </p>
<p>I think none &#8211; I think large charity organisations are frauds and that all money would be better in the bank (not the banks we have now ideally but you get my drift) providing capital to allow people in general to have cheaper stuff and have more free money to help people they want to more directly and locally. </p>
<p>I think this idea should be promoted and the givers who are not just phoneys might wake up and change their ways. Might &#8211; I&#8217;m not holding my breath. If I ever get invited to one of the Guardian readers social events again, I think I&#8217;ll go and suffer the wonder-government stuff just to make this argument to see what response I get.</p>
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		<title>By: Bent</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810609</link>
		<dc:creator>Bent</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 19:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810609</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Tyler Cowen response link gives us Robert Frank anew, here&#039;s Cowen: http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/the-economics-of-black-friday.html]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tyler Cowen response link gives us Robert Frank anew, here&#8217;s Cowen: <a href="http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/the-economics-of-black-friday.html" rel="nofollow">http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2011/11/the-economics-of-black-friday.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Inquisitor</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/19485/this-i-believe-status-seeking-and-social-fabric/comment-page-1/#comment-810608</link>
		<dc:creator>Inquisitor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Nov 2011 18:50:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=19485#comment-810608</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Envy is something that is purely at the discretion of the person experiencing it to mute, and trying to quash it via redistribution schemes is no guarantee that it will fade away, or even worse, simply intensify (Nozick&#039;s brilliant argument.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Envy is something that is purely at the discretion of the person experiencing it to mute, and trying to quash it via redistribution schemes is no guarantee that it will fade away, or even worse, simply intensify (Nozick&#8217;s brilliant argument.)</p>
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