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	<title>Comments on: Is Amazon&#8217;s Silk Browser a Copyright Pirate?</title>
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	<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803339</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Oct 2011 12:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803339</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These are very helpful comments; I clarified and expanded my updated comments in the main post.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These are very helpful comments; I clarified and expanded my updated comments in the main post.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803064</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Sep 2011 00:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803064</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ah--good point. however, 512(b) does refer to &quot;intermediate and temporary storage of material&quot;. What is &quot;temporary&quot;? The way I understand the amazon cloud working, it could store sites, pages, files, for months, or longer. Is that temporary? Is it &quot;intermediate&quot;? Seems to me there is a non-trivial possibility of litigation.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah&#8211;good point. however, 512(b) does refer to &#8220;intermediate and temporary storage of material&#8221;. What is &#8220;temporary&#8221;? The way I understand the amazon cloud working, it could store sites, pages, files, for months, or longer. Is that temporary? Is it &#8220;intermediate&#8221;? Seems to me there is a non-trivial possibility of litigation.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca Tushnet</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803058</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca Tushnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 23:19:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803058</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[No, sorry, you&#039;re still quoting 512(a).  The coordinate limitation on 512(b) is that the caching entity has to follow any rules that the originating website has about refreshing content.  There&#039;s no reason to assume that Amazon violates those rules, or stores the content forever.  And indeed, automatic conversion for convenience into a different format or resolution is fine.  See IO Group, Inc. v. Veoh Networks, Inc., 586 F. Supp. 2d 1132 (N.D. Cal. 2008).

You could say that anything is uncertain until specifically litigated.  But I don&#039;t think that&#039;s true, and I don&#039;t think people should behave as if it is true; that just lets copyright expand ever further.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, sorry, you&#8217;re still quoting 512(a).  The coordinate limitation on 512(b) is that the caching entity has to follow any rules that the originating website has about refreshing content.  There&#8217;s no reason to assume that Amazon violates those rules, or stores the content forever.  And indeed, automatic conversion for convenience into a different format or resolution is fine.  See IO Group, Inc. v. Veoh Networks, Inc., 586 F. Supp. 2d 1132 (N.D. Cal. 2008).</p>
<p>You could say that anything is uncertain until specifically litigated.  But I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s true, and I don&#8217;t think people should behave as if it is true; that just lets copyright expand ever further.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803056</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 23:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Rebecca, I think you&#039;re right--the &quot;transient&quot; word is in 512(a). But it&#039;s still not clear to me that what Amazon is doing for Kindle Fire is covered by 512(b). It specifies that cached copies may not be stored “for a longer period than is reasonably necessary for the transmission, routing, or provision of connections.” It also requires that the content that is stored not be “modified.” Is permanent storing of images, or for months or years, a reasonable period of time, just to transmit and route? I doubt it. And is scaling down images not modifying them? Doesn&#039;t seem obvious to me. Do you have any caselaw construing this? If not--I think my original point stands: this is uncertain.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rebecca, I think you&#8217;re right&#8211;the &#8220;transient&#8221; word is in 512(a). But it&#8217;s still not clear to me that what Amazon is doing for Kindle Fire is covered by 512(b). It specifies that cached copies may not be stored “for a longer period than is reasonably necessary for the transmission, routing, or provision of connections.” It also requires that the content that is stored not be “modified.” Is permanent storing of images, or for months or years, a reasonable period of time, just to transmit and route? I doubt it. And is scaling down images not modifying them? Doesn&#8217;t seem obvious to me. Do you have any caselaw construing this? If not&#8211;I think my original point stands: this is uncertain.</p>
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		<title>By: Rebecca Tushnet</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803054</link>
		<dc:creator>Rebecca Tushnet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803054</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry, but you&#039;re quoting the wrong provision.  Transient communications is 512(a), and applies to routing/storage for things like email. Caching, until fairly recently mostly a relic of slower internet speeds, is a different practice, and applying 512(b) to Google&#039;s behavior was a bit of a stretch. This, not so much.

I do agree that copyright in general creates bad uncertainty, but this isn&#039;t one of those instances.  The complexity of the provisions here is problematic, and it also raises costs to have to figure out if you&#039;re in the right box, but 512(b) doesn&#039;t require much in the way of judgment calls.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but you&#8217;re quoting the wrong provision.  Transient communications is 512(a), and applies to routing/storage for things like email. Caching, until fairly recently mostly a relic of slower internet speeds, is a different practice, and applying 512(b) to Google&#8217;s behavior was a bit of a stretch. This, not so much.</p>
<p>I do agree that copyright in general creates bad uncertainty, but this isn&#8217;t one of those instances.  The complexity of the provisions here is problematic, and it also raises costs to have to figure out if you&#8217;re in the right box, but 512(b) doesn&#8217;t require much in the way of judgment calls.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803012</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:56:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803012</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Exactly. This is just right. It&#039;s the reason people who oppose &quot;software patents&quot; are barking up the wrong tree--I&#039;ve written maybe 100 of them myself and am not sure you can define it to exclude it anyway. And yes, IP concepts are inherently vague and ambiguous because they are artificial and not rooted in objective property borders. 

I will update the main post above shortly to mention the DMCA provisions on caching, which I&#039;m aware of, but my point was not that this is definitely copyright infringement--just that there is legal uncertainty, and it &quot;could&quot; be; and if it is, this just shows another problem with copyright, that it would prevent this kind of great technology (and even if it doesn&#039;t prevent it, until we know for sure, there is legal uncertainty).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly. This is just right. It&#8217;s the reason people who oppose &#8220;software patents&#8221; are barking up the wrong tree&#8211;I&#8217;ve written maybe 100 of them myself and am not sure you can define it to exclude it anyway. And yes, IP concepts are inherently vague and ambiguous because they are artificial and not rooted in objective property borders. </p>
<p>I will update the main post above shortly to mention the DMCA provisions on caching, which I&#8217;m aware of, but my point was not that this is definitely copyright infringement&#8211;just that there is legal uncertainty, and it &#8220;could&#8221; be; and if it is, this just shows another problem with copyright, that it would prevent this kind of great technology (and even if it doesn&#8217;t prevent it, until we know for sure, there is legal uncertainty).</p>
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		<title>By: Ohhh Henry</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-803007</link>
		<dc:creator>Ohhh Henry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:45:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-803007</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;I guess litigation will tell us. Thank goodness for the regime of legal certainty statutory law affords us!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
This is of course one of the most serious problems with IP - it is such a vague concept that nobody actually knows when an actionable violation has taken place.  There are clear violations such as a company mass-copying DVDs and selling them or giving them away, and there are undisputed non-violations such as having your browser keep a copy of web content in its cache.  But what about everything else?  Such as manually saving a copy of web content in order to read it later, creating a backup copy of a DVD, or making a PVR recording and then letting your friends watch it.  Nobody can come up with a simple, clear definition of what is a violation and what is not.  This is not very surprising, because the concept of IP is itself vague and undefined.  

The only thing about IP that is actually easy and simple to understand is that it is a shakedown of the public by large corporations working in connivance with government.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I guess litigation will tell us. Thank goodness for the regime of legal certainty statutory law affords us!</p></blockquote>
<p>This is of course one of the most serious problems with IP &#8211; it is such a vague concept that nobody actually knows when an actionable violation has taken place.  There are clear violations such as a company mass-copying DVDs and selling them or giving them away, and there are undisputed non-violations such as having your browser keep a copy of web content in its cache.  But what about everything else?  Such as manually saving a copy of web content in order to read it later, creating a backup copy of a DVD, or making a PVR recording and then letting your friends watch it.  Nobody can come up with a simple, clear definition of what is a violation and what is not.  This is not very surprising, because the concept of IP is itself vague and undefined.  </p>
<p>The only thing about IP that is actually easy and simple to understand is that it is a shakedown of the public by large corporations working in connivance with government.</p>
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		<title>By: Erick Malsbury</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802952</link>
		<dc:creator>Erick Malsbury</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 14:06:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802952</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Copyright law is a sham anyhow.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Copyright law is a sham anyhow.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802834</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Sep 2011 01:48:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802834</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Boy, a little snarky today huh Stephan? No bourbon for breakfast? Or too much?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boy, a little snarky today huh Stephan? No bourbon for breakfast? Or too much?</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802800</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802800</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A nym on a blog saying he &quot;hasn&#039;t heard of X getting into trouble for similar stuff&quot; is just as good as a legal opinion, I guess! That settles it!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A nym on a blog saying he &#8220;hasn&#8217;t heard of X getting into trouble for similar stuff&#8221; is just as good as a legal opinion, I guess! That settles it!</p>
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		<title>By: Simon</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802795</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 21:14:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Opera Mobile does a similar thing and I havn&#039;t heard of them getting into trouble.  Though, it&#039;s good to have some competition -- Amazon Silk sounds better.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Opera Mobile does a similar thing and I havn&#8217;t heard of them getting into trouble.  Though, it&#8217;s good to have some competition &#8212; Amazon Silk sounds better.</p>
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		<title>By: John P.</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802792</link>
		<dc:creator>John P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 20:51:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[And you had to go and point that out... Shhhh don&#039;t let the copy policy know!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And you had to go and point that out&#8230; Shhhh don&#8217;t let the copy policy know!</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802781</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:50:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802781</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dunno. I guess litigation will tell us. Thank goodness for the regime of legal certainty statutory law affords us!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dunno. I guess litigation will tell us. Thank goodness for the regime of legal certainty statutory law affords us!</p>
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		<title>By: Bryan Okolowicz</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/18568/is-amazons-silk-browser-a-copyright-pirate/comment-page-1/#comment-802777</link>
		<dc:creator>Bryan Okolowicz</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Sep 2011 19:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=18568#comment-802777</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Search engines such as Google have been caching web pages since their inception. Granted, images aren&#039;t cached but I think most people would agree it is not due to any copyright liability. Therefore, doesn&#039;t this practice offer some safety of precedent?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Search engines such as Google have been caching web pages since their inception. Granted, images aren&#8217;t cached but I think most people would agree it is not due to any copyright liability. Therefore, doesn&#8217;t this practice offer some safety of precedent?</p>
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