Well that makes no sense at all. What other scenarios are there where a “guardian” can make decisions about whether you “consent” or not for you and how does this follow from the NAP? I think you’ll find that it doesn’t.

In any case, he “attains” it because when in society you have rights-bearing agents who are temporarily incapacitated, or due to their nature as developing children, people will want to know what is consented to by the child, or on the child’s behalf. So the institution of guardianship (agency) will naturally arise, and people will ask: who is this kid’s guardian?

Naturally I already understand the elementary points you are making. The question is whether positive rights exist on planet Kinsella.

Such a theory of assumed agency by right of parenthood implies that parents have the positive right to impose discipline on a child, and the child has no negative rights against aggression by parents. That is the normative rule of which you speak, correct?

Of course, the default assumption will be the parents, do to their natural connection to the child. THis is really not hard.

Nothing is hard if you assume enough. We may agree to assume that the natural candidate for guardian of an infant is the parent, and further simplify by assuming there is only one, or the two agree perfectly on everything. What I’m asking you not to assume but to state explicitly is how this guardian fulfills their role without violating NAP?

And no, Wildberry, before you take your next leap: this kind of reasoning does not justify the state or social contract theory.

This question has nothing to do, or at least I am not asserting it does have anything to do with either.

Same reason I as a husband, if I have an epileptic seizure, might be deemed to have consented to my wife’s authorizing medical personnel to secure me physically until my seizure has passed.

Yes, I agree that under these facts we may assume that if you were not incapacitated by your seizure, you would reasonably consent to restraint.

But what if a parent decides it is not in the best interest of the child to learn to read or to take medicine? Is that still OK and squares with NAP?

But unless you want to argue this [infanticide] , the infant has rights, but it obviously unable to fully exercise them, so his guardian does in his stead.

You are assuming that everyone in the “community” agrees that what the parent decides is in the “best interest” of the child. That does not present much difficulty in a discussion of the relationship of rights between the parent and child, and the operation of NAP. I am asking you to assume a negative case, where there is disagreement about what “best interest” means, and tell me how the application of NAP sorts that out. As Van Dun points out, it is a strict liability rule. If it is really not hard, walk me though it.

Really. Wildberry, this is not very difficult. And no, it does not justify the mass violent aggression of your cherished state.

meh

The state may not aggress against innocent victims, no offense you. The parent may decide for the child for things in his interest. There is no conflict.

This seems like a good rule. I am wondering how it works in this case, where we assume there IS a conflict. That is what illuminates how the NAP is applied consistently.

By those in the community.

Well, that is a rather large leap, isn’t it? In this community, I presume there is uniform adherence to NAP. I am assuming there is some conflict between what some see as being in the interests of the child, and therefore within the scope of this agency concept, and what others see as being against the child’s interests. How does NAP apply such that strict liability can be assigned to the correct party?

Are you saying that the agency powers are unlimited, or they are limited only by the most obvious standards, like murder? I am asking who seeks justice for the child who has no advocates, since obviously the child cannot hire a PDA.

Does the “community” assume the enforcement responsibilities for anyone that lives within a territory? Does the parent decide which community, and therefore what rules the child lives under based on what decisions the parent makes under its agency authority?

If the child is beaten the day before he wanted to leave home, because the parent believed it was in the best interest of the child to stay home, is that OK and within the limitations of NAP?

The parent does by becoming a parent.

OK, let’s agree; the parent assumes the duty of guardian/agent by the act of becoming impregnated and delivering a child. Let’s assume that child turns out to be mentally deficient, and will never reach an age of competence. The parent decides that it is in the best interest of the child to stay locked up in the basement. Can the “community” trespass on the land of the parent and take the child against the will of the parent? Whose rights prevail, the agency rights of the parent, or the individual rights of the child?

Whatever agency would defend the rights of unrepresented people.

OK, what agency in the Ancap world protects the rights of underrepresented people? I have given an example; a murdered child who has no relatives other than the murdering parent. Who protects that “underrepresented person”? I think Kathleen Touchstone has argued pretty persuasively that under Ancap, there is no such agency.

But perhaps she is wrong? You have an explanation? If you have an answer, I would be interested in the reason such an agency would endeavor to seek justice for a victim who cannot pay, and how the expense of such an agency is funded through market forces.

Of course there could be other penalties imposed on the parents here–ostracism etc.

Of course, but I am not raising the question of methods or effectiveness of various forms of coercion.

BUt in most cases there are other people standing in line to take the child from the abusive parent: uncles and aunts, grandparents, older siblings, cousins, even close family freinds, or rescue charities.

Again, yes we can assume that, but it is not the case I am presenting. I’m asking what happens with the child who has no advocates that depend on these types of motivations. It is reasonable to assume that relatives or even childless couples would seek to intervene on the child’s behalf. That is the easy case. I am asking you for some explanation of the more difficult case, where the child has no relative save the wrongdoer. Does the child have a right and a cause of action only if some advocate steps forward? What is the strict liability case, where wrongdoing as defined by the legal rule holds the actor strictly liable for their acts.

If the parent is the agent of the child, and the child cannot consent, and the parent exercises her right to act is a way that raises the question of prevailing rights between the parent and child, how does NAP work to provide for justice under a strict liability rule?

To put it another way, if positive rights do not exist, the parent has a free hand? Or can the rights of the child can be expressed in terms that result in retribution even if there is no advocate to pay for it, and even if the victim cannot be compensated for their loss.

If positive rights do exist, then a violation of those rights is aggression and violates NAP. But Rothbard says there are only negative rights; i.e. freedom from aggression. How are the marginal cases of parental discretion interpreted such that I can understand how to apply the strict liability rule?

It should be easy to demonstrate to a neutral forum that the child would not consent any more to guardianship by the abusive parents, and would consent to the next one in line instead. Again: this is not difficult;

Yes, I agree that a neutral forum (how does the child with no relatives or assets pay for that, especially if dead or disabled?) would find it easy to recognize murder and similar cases of abuse. But what about the marginal case that I’ve raised, like the right to read, or to take drugs, or the rights of someone mentally incompetent? I’m not saying there is not an answer; I’m just asking what it is?

and, again: no, Wildberry, none of this justifies the state.

I agree, but that is not my question. In fact if I can understand how the NAP works in this case, I think it is a strong argument that the state, at least in this instance, is not necessary to the administration of justice.

No. The parent’s guardian authority is limited by the duty to care for the child.

OK, so the parent has a duty to satisfy the positive rights of the child to receive “proper care”? That conflicts with Rothbard, I think. Also, any need to define “proper” so that strict liability applies? If not, then how do you deal with the ambiguities of facts in the application of NAP?

If I loan you my car does this mean I consent to you running me over with it? No, of course not. He authority is circumscribed by purpose and context–again, no offense, you.

Yes I agree. You are an adult and competent (for the sake of argument) and if you survived, you would be able to argue that your consent for me to use your car did not include consent to run you down with it. If you didn’t survive, are you assuming that one of your relatives or friends would put up the cash to come after me with a PDA?

It is exactly the “purpose and context” that I’m asking about. It is trivial to understand this when the facts present an obvious case. If we assume vehicular manslaughter, it is not difficult to apply strict liability. If however we assume some marginal case, where the distinction between aggression and non-aggression is beyond the third-grade level, like say a parent’s use of corporal punishment for a child’s choice of clothes, reading material, or music, then it becomes a little harder to say what is aggression and what is not. I’m asking you to help me see the light.

No worries, I am well conditioned to not be offended by you.

No. The parent is just an agent for the child. He makes decisions for the child until the child is compos mentis.

If what Rothbard says is true, that all rights are negative rights, then how does a parent attain this right to act as the child’s agent?

“True”? Rothbard is talking about norms, not facts. In any case, he “attains” it because when in society you have rights-bearing agents who are temporarily incapacitated, or due to their nature as developing children, people will want to know what is consented to by the child, or on the child’s behalf. So the institution of guardianship (agency) will naturally arise, and people will ask: who is this kid’s guardian? Of course, the default assumption will be the parents, do to their natural connection to the child. THis is really not hard. And no, Wildberry, before you take your next leap: this kind of reasoning does not justify the state or social contract theory.

If the child is the principal, why would the child consent to acts of aggression in enforcing decisions contrary to the wishes of the child?

Same reason I as a husband, if I have an epileptic seizure, might be deemed to hvae consented to my wife’s authorizing medical personnel to secure me physically until my seizure has passed.

If you claim that the child is incapable of consent due to infancy, the how does the child consent to agency? If the child does not consent, what is the justification for aggression by the parent to enforce obedience?

WEll if you want to claim he has no rights, and that infanticide is justified–hey, that’s on you. But unless you want to argue this, the infant has rights, but it obviously unable to fully exercise them, so his guardian does in his stead. Really. Wildberry, this is not very difficult. And no, it does not justify the mass violent aggression of your cherished state.

Also, I also have to wonder how this washes with your criticism of the State for “inflicting violence on the innocent”? It is OK for “libertarians” to inflict violence in this case?

The state may not aggress against innocent victims, no offense you. The parent may decide for the child for things in his interest. There is no conflict.

He is presumed to be the one to speak for the child, unless duties of parenthood are breached

By whom is he “presumed” to speak for the child?

By those in the community.

Who imposes the “duties of parenthood”?

The parent does by becoming a parent.

If the parent kills the child, and neither the parent or child has any living relatives, who enforces the rights of the child to his own life, or is that something he only obtains upon majority?

Whatever agency would defend the rights of unrepresented people. Of course there could be other penalties imposed on the parents here–ostracism etc. BUt in most cases there are other people standing in line to take the child from the abusive parent: uncles and aunts, grandparents, older siblings, cousins, even close family freinds, or rescue charities. They would assert the right on behalf of the child to be emancipated from teh first family. It should be easy to demonstrate to a neutral forum that the child would not consent any more to guardianship by the abusive parents, and would consent to the next one in line instead. Again: this is not difficult; and, again: no, Wildberry, none of this justifies the state.

Wouldn’t your theory ultimately imply that the child consented to his own murder?

No. The parent’s guardian authority is limited by the duty to care for the child. If I loan you my car does this mean I consent to you running me over with it? No, of course not. tHe authority is circumscribed by purpose and context–again, no offense, you.

No. The parent is just an agent for the child. He makes decisions for the child until the child is compos mentis.

If what Rothbard says is true, that all rights are negative rights, then how does a parent attain this right to act as the child’s agent? The theory of agency means that the agent acts with authority only within the scope of the principal’s consent to act. If the child is the principal, why would the child consent to acts of aggression in enforcing decisions contrary to the wishes of the child?

If you claim that the child is incapable of consent due to infancy, the how does the child consent to agency? If the child does not consent, what is the justification for aggression by the parent to enforce obedience?

In other words, by what principle does the child consent to parental agency, and then consent to forego the right to withdraw that consent? How does that wash with NAP?

Also, I also have to wonder how this washes with your criticism of the State for “inflicting violence on the innocent”? It is OK for “libertarians” to inflict violence in this case?

He is presumed to be the one to speak for the child, unless duties of parenthood are breached

By whom is he “presumed” to speak for the child? Who imposes the “duties of parenthood”?

If the parent uses force against the child to coerce obedience to the will of the parent, is that a breach of parental duties or is the parent’s failure to do so a breach? How do you distinguish between one kind of obedience and others? Can the parent require the child to play on the freeway?

So the parent can consent on the child’s behalf to certain manipulations and bodily touchings, so that they are not aggression, since they are consented to by the child (by his parental agent-guardian).

If a parent beats the child, then it is presumed by your rule that the child consents to this beating?

If the parent kills the child, and neither the parent or child has any living relatives, who enforces the rights of the child to his own life, or is that something he only obtains upon majority? Wouldn’t your theory ultimately imply that the child consented to his own murder?

Apparently Rothbard says that this period of agency last until the time that the child makes the voluntary choice to leave home and become independent. If a child remains in the house until 30 years old, does the parent have the right to murder the “child” with his consent? What if he is mentally disabled?

Are you saying that the parental right of agency, once established at birth, is unlimited until the child leaves home?

No. The parent is just an agent for the child. He makes decisions for the child until the child is compos mentis. He is presumed to be the one to speak for the child, unless duties of parenthood are breached–eg., abuse of the child. So the parent can consent on the child’s behalf to certain manipulations and bodily touchings, so that they are not aggression, since they are consented to by the child (by his parental agent-guardian).

So you agree then that parents are free to initiate at least some force against their children, without worry of any punishment, until such time as the child reaches some age (an age on which we would all no doubt disagree but lets leave that for now). Whether I agree or disagree with this is irrelevant – the question is, how does what you say follow from the NAP? Can you explain this to me please?

I think you illustrate perfectly my point to Matthew.

Certainly, the ideal of self-government based on principles of equal representation does not rest on the purpose of “initiating violence against innocents”.

Likewise the ideals of a constitutional republic do not exist as means to that end.

A constitutional republic rests on the ideal “of the people, by the people, for the people” which in a very general sense, is a fully a libertarian ideal. You are simply objecting on the basis that it fails to achieve that end. I say that to the extent it serves that purpose, to empower the governed to govern themselves, it is legitimate means to a legitimate end. To the extent is does not, it should be opposed.

One way to view wisdom is the ability to distinguish one thing from another. Wisdom is much harder to attain and act upon than mere sloganeering.

The blanket statement that “government initiates violence against innocents” is better suited to a bumper sticker than anything else.

Your points have some merit, but you assume too much about what I’m saying. I agree one could find the inferences you draw if you wanted to.

If you are asking…

No, we should not shrug off historical writers, but it can be helpful to keep in mind the historical context from which they are speaking.

I am sure anarchists see merit in their position, and reasonable people can disagree. But I think you can also agree that it is difficult sometimes to separate the ideology from one’s analysis, and that foregone conclusions have a tendency to smuggle in their favored assumptions. I think that is probably the case here.

The story about the USPS is admittedly incomplete. Thank you for the links. I was only pointing out that he was personally harmed by the system he criticizes, not that his criticisms are solely the result of his experience as a victim of state action in his business, but the again perhaps they are. There have been a number of milestones in the history of the USPS, and apparently it is not over, as they find today it is difficult to compete with private firms. I don’t claim to know the merits of the case here.

And yes, the motives for the Civil War were complex and there is much to criticize about the heavy-handed and in my view unfair actions of the north relative to trade tariffs imposed on the southern cotton exporters to the benefit of northern textile manufacturers. Not every historical event can be viewed as fair or legitimate with the benefit of hindsight. As to whether the outcome would have been for the better or worse had the south successfully seceded, we will never now. But it came with a terrible price, as all war does. Perhaps the rights of states to secede will be tested again soon. That seems like a remote possibility, but more likely today than 100 years ago.

Nonetheless, you seem to have gotten distracted by all of this, and missed my essential point, which is that anarchists have a tendency to equivocate the actions of a highway robber and governments in a very general way, and the views expressed here illustrate that observation, in my opinion.

I take your point regarding the North’s aggression on the South, but even that cannot be generalized to every single action that government has ever taken before or since.

That is too broad a brush, and reduces a complex subject to sloganeering. It is an effective metaphor, I agree, to prefer the highway robber to the conduct of government, but I object on the basis that the existence of the highway robber is one justification for the existence of the government you oppose.

It is not necessary for me to choose sides between the two. Robbery is a crime, no matter who perpetrates it. We apparently differ on whether the concept of crime applies to government in all cases and circumstances, but probably agree that it always applies to the highwayman. So I can be sure to consistently oppose the highwayman, but can oppose government only on a case by case basis. You and other anarchists seem to consider them equivalent, I do not. But that’s just me.

I’m curious – what system exactly do you propose, one to which new born babies are able to sign up? Or when “should” children sign up and why?

I decided on my terms when I started working, and bought a car, and rented a house. Actually I have a pretty significant number of social contracts and obligations that I must adhere to that I agreed to. Didn’t need a state government for any of it.

So one way they would be An-Cap style government.

Then the answer to ‘when should children sign up’ would be when are emancipated from their parents and decide to join the adult world. They then can choose to take on responsibility and adjust to society or they can deny it all together and go off and live in exile in the wilderness or whatever. (of which there is plenty of room for people that want to be hermits)

A less perfect, but probably more practical, approach would be to try to get to as close to ‘pure democracy’ as humanly possible. Which means to restrict government to the size of city-states were people have a wide variety of ‘official’ governments to choose from based on geographical location. In the case of the USA this would mean to relocate the bulk of State (as in like Nevada) and Federal power down to the county level through constitutional amendments.

The only reason the Federal government can be as terrible as it is is because it’s very difficult to escape it’s grasp. If we reduce the size of Washington DC’s influence to just Washington DC then that would solve a huge number of problems for a huge number of people.

“an anarchist”
Which no one chooses based on any merit in your opinion.

“put out of busines by the USPS monopoly.”
This is at best incomplete, if not downright inaccurate.

Congress intervened so that the USPS could compete..
http://books.google.com/books?id=wPmIGtrxXb0C&pg=PA27&dq=%22lysander+spooner%22+%22post+office%22+monopoly&hl=en&ei=fw9QTaryCcbngQfFqPnmDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22lysander%20spooner%22%20%22post%20office%22%20monopoly&f=false

“above a legitimate government”
He made the argument shortly after a civil war, a war that should fairly clearly have settled the issue of whether the government really rested on consent of the governed. Clearly for a very large part of the country, it did not.

I’m curious – what system exactly do you propose, one to which new born babies are able to sign up? Or when “should” children sign up and why?

If your point is that there should be nothing at all to actually sign up to, it would seem that only systems which follow logically from some assumptions can be “imposed” on new borns – there must be some argument that babies later in life once they learn to speak couldn’t possibly disagree with.

Do you agree? WOuld you care to point out what these assumptions/arguments are?

When Kinsella and most others around here say the word ‘tax’, I believe they are referring to an involuntary charge, levied for the government, which is theoretically taken to pay for services provided. The problem is that those services are also involuntary. When the word ‘state’ is thrown around, a government which engages in that kind of behavior (involuntary services, involuntary taxes) is also being referred to.

I’m sure you can see why that’s considered aggression, or theft. Quite simply, I don’t consent to a lot of the things the government does. I object to the War on Drugs; I object to the War on Terror; I object to the vast majority of laws and regulations. But I get to pay taxes anyway, taxes which go to support all those things.

Is there a way to change those things? Yes. Theoretically. But. . . why should I have to change them? Why can’t I just not participate? I never signed any contract, or made any agreement. I certainly never agreed to any penalty clause for leaving the system. Government is supposed to be providing services, right? Making life better for people? Well, I don’t think my life is better than it would be. So how about I simply don’t pay taxes, and then don’t demand government services? I’m not receiving service, so I don’t pay for it. Fine. Let the people who benefit from the government pay for it, and the people who don’t won’t, and everyone will be happy.

Except, uh, no. That’s not allowed. If you try, the government does, in fact, send armed men who throw you in jail and steal your possessions. THAT is aggression. It’s unjustified use of force. You weren’t hurting anybody, or infringing on anyone’s rights. You just wanted to live your life without either demanding help from the government or giving them any of your money. The aggression comes in once the government declares that isn’t an option.

Could there be a libertarian government? Sure. It would be voluntarily funded by donations from members (can’t call them ‘taxes’, really, because they have very little in common with the involuntary tax system), who would all have contracts stating the fees charged and the services provided. If one of them stopped paying, he would stop receiving service. Now, since the government would likely want people to join, they would have a very strong pressure to develop efficient and just laws which would reflect the desires of their members. If they didn’t, dissatisfied members would leave, and might form their OWN government, which reflected their desires better. In time, one government might lose all its members to other, competing governments, and end up going. . . bankrupt. . .

Say, wait. This sounds suspiciously like a free market in government. Isn’t that one of those crazy anarchist ideas?

For me it is a two-fold problem: spending and taxation. Both are much too high.

In case you have not been following the news, that very issue is at the center of the national politcal debate taking place at the moment. Of the two positons; 1) big government, big spending, big taxes; v. 2)smaller government, spending and taxes, which do you favor?

Or do you honestly not care how it comes out because the state is so evil, it really doesn’t matter, so you are holding out for option 3), whatever that is?

Wild, IMHO, you are wrong in your assumption that the alternatives are legal means or violence and bloodshed.

Yes, you are right. I meant to convey that in my earlier comment regarding civil disobedience. True, those are not “legal means” in all cases, but such non-violent protest is a legitimate means, and often within legal bounds.

However, I want to remind you that in the cases you cite there were not state-established and sanctioned means to bring about peaceful revolution, including the abolishment of immoral or even unpopular laws, or to replace even the system of governance. That is an important distinction, don’t you think?

As you say, people are morally bound to abolish immoral laws like slavery and taxation, and with the abolition of forcible taxation the State, as we know it. is doomed. Of course, as we witnessed during the “Arab spring,” civil disobedience can and often does result in violent repression by the State, which is to be expected from such an evil institution, but if those resisting remain peaceful their prospects of success are greatly enhanced.

Of course, but how does your argument accommodate a state that provides for a peaceful means for its own demise?

BTW, what difference do you see between State-sanctioned slavery and State-sanctioned taxation?

Slaves do not have the means, at least legal means, to vote for their own freedom. That is a crucial distinction.

The State itself is an immoral (viz., evil) construct because its immunizes its agents from the just consequence of their actions, which, in many instances, are blatantly criminal, including such heinous crimes as murder and extortion. Without their State-granted immunity, every IRS agent would be doing time, and the congresscreeps, bureaucritters, presidents, and judges who conspire in the illicit act would be convicted as accessories before the act, and citizens who shared in the loot would be found guilty as accessories after.

You seem to be lumping all states in a big pile, and make no distinction between Stalin and FDR. Look, you did not personally vote for speed limits, right? Are you saying that anyone who drives should be immune from them unless they personally vote to support them? At some point that position becomes ridiculous.

I understand you think all forms of government are just well organized conspiracies to oppress the citizens. But I don’t think you are stupid or dishonest because you hold this view. I think you are wrong, but reasonable people can disagree.

It seems to me that a government based on a principle that reasonable people who have disagreements can peacefully coexist is not all bad, in every circumstance, absolutely.