Gary North’s concluding remarks at the initiatory debate at Mises University 2011 with Dr. Walter Block, Harold E. Wirth Endowed Chair in Economics at Loyola University on Whether it is Smart to Get a PhD in Economics…
“I have been saving this. And, for those listening on the video you must get to substantiate what I am saying a copy of Dr. Block’s speech on unemployment. He made an eloquent case against the trade unions. He made, I think, a moral case against the trade unions. The moral corruption of using government guns and badges to keep people out of a field. To create a cartel by violence and the threat of violence. To create whole industries based on violence and guns and badges. Now, if he is going to believe his own position on the evils of the trade unions and the moral evil of using violence to keep people out of the field, to keep them from teaching, to keep them from providing competitive services, to create unemployment . To lock good people out because they did not conform to the rules of the trade union. If he believes that, one more time, why are you teaching in a university at $170,000 a year? Why? And, that ain’t funny, that is a moral question.
I will tell you who my model was and he has been my model for 35 years, and that was Dominick Armentano, now he said he would never go into a state university and he taught at the University of Hartford. I thought that was a strong position. The bottom line is that if you go into academia it is a government cartel that has taken $430 billion a year out of the American economy to sell overpriced goods to students who are running up now 24,000 dollars of debt and parents running up bigger quantities paying overpriced cartelized prices for third rate products. And, if you ever ever break the cartel you are going to see the production of what really needs to be done is Walmart University. Because, I got no choice I don’t sell my soul to the devil to get his pay, thats why, Walter. That is not funny, but that is the truth. Do not sell your soul to the system that you say you don’t believe in and that your economics says is wrong when that system is a government established cartel and there are alternatives.
There is Mises Academy, there are private schools that are not regulated by the state, there are home school programs. There is a way to make a living without joining the labor union of the modern academic system. Yes, you can profit if you get on the right side of the trade. If you leap the high barrier and get across and get that tenure position. Yes, it is profitable. But, every time you hear the story about “above market wages” you gotta look for the question where is the gun? Where is the badge? And, who is being left out of the system? That is what we do as Austrian school economists. Who wins? Who Loses? When you got winners look for the losers. And, if there is a guy with a gun and and a badge standing between the loser and success I say don’t be associated with the gun or the badge!”
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Hear, hear, Gary North! But how does one escape the fact that the Ludwig von Mises Institute (and thus Mises Academy) is a 501c3 corporation operating under the aegis of the almighty State and regulated by its internal-revenue inspectors?
I don’t get what you are trying to get at? Where do you suggest they go? How do you suggest they operate? When the guys with the badges and guns come knocking, they won’t be knocking on your door. They will be knocking on the doors of those who try to circumvent their sacred law.
Currently it is next to impossible to escape the fact that we live and operate under the siege of the almighty State.
Well, we have an example of what is possible, although the final outcome has certainly been co-opted by the State.
Years ago when the Sierra Club was a small conservation organization it lobbied people and governments (fed and states, henceforth the “State”) on behalf of environmental issues, but not so hard as to really upset anyone. It fought against the western-states, dam-building mania of the Army Corp of Engineers and its cohort, the Bureau of Reclamation (a.k.a., Wreck the Nation). It manage to abort government plans for a dam in Dinosaur National Monument. But when it went all in to prevent the State from erecting two dams in the Grand Canyon, which had the backing of some influential politicians in Washington, proponents of the dams loosed IRS attack dogs with orders to sic ‘em, and suspended its tax-deductible status. The Sierra Club had a choice: stop its “political” lobbying against the dams, or give up its c3 status and lose the benefit of tax deductible contributions. David Brower, the fiesty executive director of the Sierra Club reportedly said, “To hell with that!” The club surendered its status as a c3, but it gained tens of thousands of new members and defeated the GC dams proposal.
Oh, and btw, the guys with badges and guns have come knocking on my door, and in subsequent proceedings I discovered that retaining my integrity was well worth the cost of jail time. As an added bonus, the experience rendered me virtually immune to officialdom’s threats to jail me. Been there; done that; no big deal.
This is precisely one of the points that Walter Block alludes too (when he asks if Gary North used any public roads to get here, or if he had any fiat currency in his wallet).
Some state-controlled (I am hesitant to say state-provided) resources must be used, e.g. roads, though thousands of them were originally built privately and taken over by the state. Fair enough
That doesn’t lead to the inescapable conclusion that we must therefore take part in all state-sponsored/controlled enterprises, especially when alternatives exist.
Alternatives to public/government schooling exist at all levels. It is reasonable and consistent to avail oneself of the alternatives if one argues so strongly against statism, as Dr. Block surely does. And it strikes me as equally reasonable for Mr. North to frame the case in that manner.
I wasn’t there, but your description makes it sounds like Walter Block played one of the statists’ favorite trump cards. North’s response to Block’s question should have been something like this: I did use public roads to get here and I do have fiat currency in my wallet, but I don’t charge the State even one red cent for the damage my vehicle suffers on its inferior roads that I am forced to use, nor do I sue the State to compensate me for the financial loses I suffer as a result of being forced by legal-tender laws to use its gosh-awful, depreciating currency. Relative to what would be otherwise available, I am impoverished by the State’s roads and frns.
Because he doesn’t have a choice, unlike those that teach at state-funded universities.
Tax exemptions are exemptions from force, not the result of application of force. They mean that force is used to take less money from tax payers. In a just world, every expenditure would be tax exempt not simply those to charitable institutions.
“that system is a government established cartel and there are alternatives”
This seems wrong. There is no academia outside of the public system of academia. If you want to be an academic, there is no alternative to the public system. Hence North’s argument that he uses public roads because there’s no alternative applies just as well to academia.
Teachers in government-funded schools are in a bit of a pickle. To some degree, they are serving the public by giving them what they want. The wages and benefits are however above what they would be in the free market however, as noted. It’s a similar problem for those working in practically any sector which is disproportionately affected by fiat money. Many high-tech workers in the late 90s and (very) early 2000s had this dilemma, that they were receiving huge salaries and stock options for working in startup companies funded by venture capital which they knew to be doomed. Those working in real estate in the following period had to know that they were practically stealing all the jack they were making, as the government ran up the bubble with Paul Krugman egging them on. At what point should you quit your chosen profession, because of the taint of too many central bank IOUs?
The dilemma is not just a moral one, but a practical one. What if those fabulously large teachers’ pension funds take a big hit in the markets? Or if unfunded, what if the states guaranteeing the pensions go bankrupt? As they might very well do in the next few years. The teachers’ bargain with the devil may come due long before they thought. Teachers may have it worse than the other groups I mentioned (high tech and real estate) because the existence of their “generous” pension plans means that they may be unable to make large contributions to officially-sanctioned (untaxed) private pension plans. They don’t have as much opportunity place side bets against the central bank. But at least they will always have the opportunity, during a prolonged depression, of teaching private students. It may not pay well but it has to be a lot better than banging the cash register at Mickey D’s.
Generally good questions, and thoughts.
But I would argue with this: “The wages and benefits [of public school teachers] are however above what they would be in the free market however, as noted.”
We don’t really know that due to the muddled environment. Maybe it would be, for some. Maybe not, for others.
Definitely recommend watching this debate. Usually Walter steamrolls some Keynesian, some socialist, or some monetarist. No steamrolling this time around.
Great debate! Great debaters! I have to give this one to Walter, who looks closer to 50 than 70.
North advocates writing for LRC/LvMI, your own website, or making YouTube videos instead of going for a PhD. But these aren’t mutually exclusive. I’m pretty sure PhD students have been published by LRC/LvMI. They definitely have made YouTube videos and their own websites. Perhaps he/we should advocate spreading Austrian economics through all mediums, especially those typically corrupted by the state.
Another solid point against North was that most of us are not “great” like Hazlitt, Mises, Rothbard, etc. The majority of people who like Austrian economics may not ever achieve the status of the aforementioned or of Gary North or Walter Block. But, of course, you don’t have to be one of the intellectual giants to promote and spread sound economics and liberty.
Also, I can only assume North thinks poorly of Judge Andrew Napalitano’s show. Cable, like higher ed, is far from a free market, and rests on many state privileges. As for Ron Paul, well, his lack of morality must be beyond description.
I don’t see it as a moral problem, if you don’t lose sight of your objective. Alan Greenspan, for example, forgot what he believed while he was a Fed chairman. Ron Paul, on the other hand, doesn’t seem to have forgotten.
Also, some achievements, while meaningless to freedom advocates, carry more weight in the mainstream view. A doctorate, for example, or a Nobel Prize in economics.
The lesson of Mises is that human beings act in what they perceive as their own best interests. Greenspan didn’t forget what he knew beforehand, because when he retired he signed Ron Paul’s copy of the book that contained his famous essay about gold and freedom, and he told R.P. that he still stood by what it said. But while he was Fed chairman he evidently knew that to be successful in that job (in terms of getting his terms renewed, getting praise from the press and politicians and getting outside speaking gigs) the best strategy was to inflate, inflate, inflate.
Ron Paul is evidently one of those rare people, like Mother Teresa, who put spiritual gains ahead of monetary rewards. He is happy being right and moral at the expense of getting invited to glamorous parties in DC, and getting big, fat donations and cash bribes from corporate lobbyists. It is very nice that he is like this, but it is completely unreasonable to expect ordinary people to behave this way. It is especially unreasonable to expect anyone in government to behave selflessly and not to use the tremendous power for the benefit of the public and not for themselves. Even more rare than an intelligent and selfless individual, is such an individual who is drawn to the corridors of power. For the most part – 99.9 percent of the time – the biggest rats are drawn to the greatest center of power. It doesn’t matter what they claim motivates them to run for office, the fact is that a normal human being will use the abnormally strong powers available in government to screw the public and get as much money as possible for themselves and their friends and family.
It isn’t a question of using the power of government wisely, it’s a question of eliminating the existence of coercive and fraudulent power to the maximum extent possible.
North clearly knew what he was getting himself into. He is more versed in the rules of debate, and he’s a wizard at debating. His stage presence screams confidence and preparedness, even his demeanor in sitting and listening without taking notes (as Block did) was intimidating. He also had on his side the tool that has re-energized freedom in thought and action over the past decade and will continue to do so: the grassroots movement.
Block fell back on a strangely large amount of logical canards in his responses, which seemed unusual, but then again he was out of his league as far as debates go. North didn’t address the “government roads/money” fallacy directly, but he did address it indirectly in a clever manner. Government schools have a direct interest in working against the desire for freedom that we all come here to espouse, as opposed to government roads and money, and that’s where the inherent evil lies as regards obtaining a Ph.D. in economics. Block did make a good point that obtaining a Ph.D. in economics at a university with Austrian teachers was not limited to the U.S., but how often will the typical U.S. student get to take advantage of those opportunities, and at what cost?
If I was scoring a five-round fight, win goes to North 47-43.
I think Dr. Block won with what he said about Austrian-leaning/oriented education programs and career paths and, to say it the way he did over at LRC in March, “My take on this is that it is a positive virtue to relieve the government of its ill-gotten gains.” Mr. North avoided or worse both, though insofar as he is warning against potential corruption, that is something to be wary about and guard against for your future self.
Of course, other things equal it is arguably best to not be around if possible such an enemy and evil of so prevailing power as the state, and Austro-libertarians should act on the private sector alternatives recommended by North. Though, like he said there is only room for so many there. Yet Dr. Block is not calling for people to take advantage of government positions that are illegitimate if done by a private firm on the market. He is not calling for libertarians to become, as Rothbard condemned, “a concentration camp director or guard; an official of the IRS; an official of the Selective Service System; or a controller or regulator of society or the economy.”
I certainly don’t see him as in anyway calling for people to shovel down Keynesian gruel, sell their soul to Keynes and convert! To me he is calling for them to become Austro-libertarian teachers that take from the state that which doesn’t belong to it and use such resources, status and so on on behalf of liberty, economics, heck simply the business of living. I think the soul of Dr. Block is just fine indeed. The soul of North looks well too.
I think Dr. Block won with what he said about Austrian-leaning/oriented education programs and career paths and, to say it the way he did over at LRC in March, “My take on this is that it is a positive virtue to relieve the government of its ill-gotten gains.”
I understand the sentiment, but exactly what ‘ill-gotten gains’ would you be relieving the government of by advancing further through the government school system? You’re likely to accumulate even more debt than you started with and you’re unlikely to obtain a position of any stature within the system beyond being “tenured”, which in itself is increasingly unlikely. So, besides your salary, what else is the government losing on this deal?
After watching the debate video, i feel that Block’s position was that getting a PhD is smart, but only under these provisos where you study with certain Austrian leaning teachers and you are willing to play the game at a university for a job, then a PhD makes sense, where North’s position was looking at the audience and assuming that they were going to go to “generic” university, instead of the universities on Block’s special list. And considering what a student would put up with in “generic U”, I feel that North’s feelings were right, but as the audience was people at Mises U, I think that the audience members were more likely to be considering schooling with these handpicked schools, Block’s position would be better suited to the audience, where as if the target audience is considered to be all the people that watch the video then North’s position is better suited as they are less likely to be interested in going to study with Salerno or Hulsman and more interested in learning economics at a public U.
As for North’s feelings about the morality of accepting the cartel of modern academia to become a professor, I feel he is correct. This could be one reason why there are not as many Austrian economists in public university, as they suffer a type of utilitarianism where in they try to justify the wrong they do (using cartel to get access to higher pay) with the good things they do (explain economics truthfully). Block’s arguement that North is being a hypocrite by using roads or fiat currency fails in my understanding because North does not have a private option to take around either of those two government run things, at least without becoming a hermit, whereas I feel that North demonstrated that you can reach out to people and teach them Austrian economics without using the Government cartel, and while this is not the traditional mainstream academic route to take, I feel that between North’s own career and the advice he gives about writing and self lead study, he has put together a reasonable proof of concept that a non-traditional academic can be making a good impact without having to be part of the (bad) cartel system of Higher Ed.
The problem with North’s position is he assumes people can be like him…that many can write, speak, and convey ideas in an exceptional fashion, draw an audience, and make a living as he has.
As someone who spent years as a musician, I worked with many talented people some with platinum and gold records on their walls. Guess what…today, none of them have a dime to show for their effort and most are not in the business.
The point is life has more to do with timing than talent. And even with talent and timing…time is fleeting. In the libertarian world today, the circle is small and though growing slightly…it is very, very crowded.
Block understated his position. You see, those of us in the system (I’m a teacher) have a unique advantage that those outside do not. We know how bad the system is and we know its weaknesses. We know how to circumvent it to the advantage of those we serve and we understand how to spread our message discreetly.
In many ways, we speak to an audience that will never be privy to the works of North. North et al speak mostly to the choir. Yet, who is going to speak to the average high school, community college or undergrad university student? I’m sorry, but you won’t find them going to LRC.com and reading Gary North… but I have their attention and so can others.
In the struggle against the State, there are many avenues to take and all are worthy. In the fight against tyranny, Mises fled and wrote abroad (his words powerful to this day). Others fought from within, like Georg Ferdinand Duckwitz, and Albert Goring.
The virtue of a man is not determined by his profession but by his thoughts and actions. In the pursuit of liberty … every action counts.
I don’t see why North’s remarks should get featured on the blog and not Walter Block’s. Block’s points were probably better than Gary’s. Not to mention all the people that Gary North mentions as inspirations, especially his “hero” Dominick Armentano, have PhD’s in economics, or some other social science field.
It’s really a question of whether you want to fight the battle from within or without the system. We need people on both fronts.
Dr. North handily beats Dr. Block in regards to the issue of a libertarian pursuing a career in state-funded academia. Being a student in a public university may be akin to using a public road, but being a professor more resembles making your living as a asphalt contractor siphoning off fat government contracts and funds.
The key issue of course is the *use* of a public good that has crowded out private alternatives vs. the active and personally profitable participation in its production.
Austrians are all smarter, work harder and longer than the rest of the pack. The race to the bottom of the food chain by the serfs moves the Austrians up the ladder. Right?
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