Benjamin Powell knocks out three of the myths about immigration: they’re a drag on the economy (false!), they take our jobs (false!), and they lower our wages (false!):
Naturally, I suspect that Darryl Weathers from the Construction Workers’ Union is not convinced:
As a bonus, here’s an EconTalk episode in which Bryan Caplan discusses immigration. Recently, Caplan asked on Facebook about how immigration restrictions compare to Jim Crow. Now that’s a paper that needs to be written.
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The elite don’t appear to be much convinced either, given that they don’t buy houses in immigrant neighborhoods, don’t have immigrant co-workers, don’t marry their sons and daughters to immigrants, and don’t send their kids to schools with lots of immigrants. Sure they like having cheap Meso-Americans around to do the jobs their own teenagers are too good for, and sure they may mingle with immigrants in their own IQ percentile. Otherwise, they go to great lengths to price themselves away from the immigrants they continually berate the bigoted, shortsighted hoi polloi about.
In fact, I’d counter with my own three points as to why the elite have such a bee in their bonnet for immigration (if a million are good, why not 100 million?):
1. Increase the welfare-warfare state constituency
2. Lower the bargaining power of working class whites
3. Further insulate themselves from restive American blacks
Also, there are immigrants and there are immigrants. Are we talking about von Mises and Hoppe or the members of the Frankfurt School? What were the contributions of Marx and Lenin to the British economy?
“1. Increase the welfare-warfare state constituency”
Most welfare spending in this country goes to Americans, and most Americans are the ones that vote, not immigrants. Should we then deport Americans?
“2. Lower the bargaining power of working class whites”
This is just another way of putting that American workers are going to have their wages depressed, see Ben Powell’s critique of this view.(Luckily, The video is there for you)
3. Further insulate themselves from restive American blacks
Insulate themselves from American blacks? How so? How does this view make any sense?
It would be a good enough start to ban them from participating in politics, especially voting. Also it should be illegal for government employees to vote in elections.
Anybody who makes a significant portion of their income from taxation should have no place in choosing or electing officials to office.
Right now we have a country were we have about half the population receiving a significant amount of their money through legalized theft via taxation.
This behavior is like terminal cancer for democracies. Next step is fascist socialism.
I wouldn’t count on those proposals to be realized.
I know. .It defeats much of the purpose of having government employees and welfare people in the first place.
Immigration is intended to shore up the tax farm and provide yet another “historically disadvantaged” lobby for identity group politics. Do you really think immigrants are crossing the Rio Grande with their Spanish-language editions of Human Action held aloft to keep them dry? The fact that most Americans are social democrats does not make your point for you. Immigration is cultural and political suicide for libertarians.
Meso-Americans are displacing marginally-skilled blacks from service jobs for the simple fact that elite Americans are terrified of the latter group. And speaking of kicking folks down the ladder, the flip side of Powell’s position is that American workers have apparently had a free ride since long before the 1965 Immigration Reform Act. You are going to have a hard time convincing me that was a bad thing.
The good news about immigration is that it will hasten the devolution of the American empire along its widening ethno-cultural fault lines. This happened in the Balkans, Iraq, and will happen in Britain, the Italian peninsula and elsewhere. Again, not necessarily a bad thing but I don’t know that it’s the result immigration advocates have in mind.
You are batshit insane, man. Do you take any medication?
If not, why not?
“Again, not necessarily a bad thing but I don’t know that it’s the result immigration advocates have in mind.”
Immigration advocates have in mind helping the human species as a whole (yes, including white people! you can take your tin-foil hat off now! no really!), not a certain subset of the human species that can be defined by seeing the world only through the lens of collectivist mindset.
“… helping the human species as a whole … collectivist mindset.”
^^^^^
These debates are too funny.
Economists having universal agreement on net economic benefits, this is your first myth, Powell. No, they do not and can not agree upon the most basic of economics. Different school of thoughts produces conflicting views, thinking ourselves above myths. Immigration is absolutely positive for the simple reason that an upward nation needs new people to cultivate and fleece. Sell them, as it is in the United States, the American Dream hoax and get paid handsomely while at it. Follow the path -Buy education or mis-education, buy house, buy car, buy marriage (if you can), buy children (if you’re unable to reproduce)- Stay beholding to your lenders for these things and the cycle gets repeated for the next set of immigrants.
“they take our jobs (false!)”
Thank heavens! I guess my being forced to close my business due to constant undercutting by immigrants (Legal ones, Russians in fact) because the state paid for their food/housing/gas/utilities/education is all just in my head.
Just like H1-B (Immigration-light) doesn’t take away jobs from Americans either:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU
A nation state must reserve the right to decide who it accepts into its society. It’s not an economic concern so much as it is strictly a cultural concern. Floods of 3rd world immigrants, undocumented, un-assimilated, English-illiterate and ignorant of American history, holidays, and traditions have no inherent right to move to our country. Unless you believe in the total elimination of borders, there is not conceivable reason to twist the arguments for LEGAL and RESTRICTED immigration as if all those who wish to uphold the law are parochial and uneducated nativists.
Firstly examining the impacts of immigration will be different from country to country and several factors will be responsible and should be considered. Current economic situation within the country, current population density within the country, language and cultural considerations. For example if an African country like Liberia was to increase emigration to Spain drastically then they would see different economic results, than if emigration from the UK to Spain increased drastically. If we take America for example, the country is very sparsely populated and there are many large cities. While a small country like the UK has a high population density.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_real_population_density_%28based_on_food_growing_capacity%29
1. drag on the economy
In the UK immigration can be a problem because it can effect prices via increase demand. For example the more people that move to london, the higher the price of rent properties goes. So this could be considered a drag on the economy, but might not be the case for the USA.
2 & 3 steal our jobs and depress wages
I think doug stanhope the comedian says it best when he says you don’t hear about brain surgeons complaining about immigration. He also says that if your job is so easy that someone who does not speak the language can do it, then you should find a better job. But in the UK we have seen polish people move to the uk and take over some skill trades like plumbing and electricians and other service type jobs like cleaning companies. But the increase in competition from skilled immigrants could be a good thing for the consumer. But when we have a welfare state the unemployed just increase taxes etc. When we have people that immigrate from countries with a lower standard of living like some north African countries, they will work for less. employers want employees that will work for less. So it does effect salaries that way, which in turn will see a reduction in the level of service, due to it being done by under qualified and poorly skilled immigrants (not in all cases). So then they re employ the non immigrants at the salaries of the immigrant.
The Republican House are ready to optimistically impede going over the 14.5 Trillion US debt ceiling, led by the ever tough TEA PARTY leadership. We have some solid, hard working politicians as Palin, Ryan, Bachmann, and Cain who are moderate conservatives with a definite purpose, to eliminate the corruption in Washington. They are sending a threatening message to the Democrats and GOP; we are “THE PEOPLE’S” party. To begin cutting overreaching government, start cutting taxes and do the job you are paid for? Build the real fence at our Southern border and defend our national security and the US Constitution. No additional excuses from either party, start moving out illegal migrants and immigrants, by mandating E-Verify and Secure communities. Taxpayers are frustrated and there is tense atmosphere throughout our nation, from supporting the invaders from every foreign nation. (FAIR) Federation of American Immigration Reform that runs analysis for this explosive issue, projects it costs $113 billion dollars a year at the federal level that’s climbing annually? This is not tied to the expenditures of 50 States, which have their own financial burden forced on them. California, a Sanctuary state is costing its taxpayers billions and already carrying a deficit of 26 billion dollars.
THE LIBERALS LIKE TO BLAME THE REPUBLICANS FOR THE “WITCH HUNT” AGAINST HISPANICS? THEY WILL NOT ADMIT ITS NOT LEGAL HISPANICS THAT IS CAUSING THIS FINANCIAL PROBLEM, ITS ILLEGAL ECONOMIC ALIENS. RATHER THAN THE LIBERALSDIFFERENTIATING BETWEEN ILLEGAL ALIENS, THEY CALL EVERY INDIVIDUAL AN IMMIGRANT.
Los Angeles County Supervisor Michael Antonovich stated, “The argument that illegal’s are contributing more than they receive in government services is nonsense. Illegal immigration has had a catastrophic economic impact on Los Angeles County. Our bankrupt health care delivery system has become an HMO for the world and criminal illegal aliens are overwhelming our criminal justice system. He added, “Within this County’s health care delivery system, illegal’s are being treated at a cost of nearly $500 million dollars a year. The cost alone to our Criminal Justice system for the 25 percent of the illegal’s, that up the jail population exceeding 550 million dollars a year. Additionally, illegal’s collect over $260 million in CALWORKS payments and $360 million in food stamp allocations These costs alone exceed one billion dollars annually – excluding the cost of education.” Nearly 100,000 children of 60,000 undocumented parents receive aid – for a total of 160,000. If incorporated into a city, it would be the 6th largest city in Los Angeles county Also, one in fifteen people in California is an illegal immigrant – costing our State $3 billion dollars annually.
YOU MIGHT ASK, WHAT IS ILLEGAL MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS COSTING YOUR STATE? I DON’T THINK YOUR GET A STRAIGHT ANSWER FROM YOUR STATE LEADERS? THEY ARE RATHER IN TIGHT WITH THE BUSINESSES COMMUNITIES OR ARE RUNNING SCARED FROM THIS ISSUE?
Deceitful Companies and open border interests are just one foundation for the financial fall of America. Democratic leaders discounted the Tea Party and measured them as nothing more than a small crowd of discontents. Oh! Boy! Were they wrong? The GOP, on the other hand, understood that it wasn’t and were bright enough to encourage them into their party. People have been wondering for a long time, who Congress works for? That question is simply answered, when the United States, unlike other nations doesn’t make it a felony to trespass on to our sovereign territory? Decades of complete brain oblivion–intentional or not on the part of both political parties in Congress, is costing millions of US jobs, lowering of wage, and higher taxes to accrue to this mess; specifically in the lower working classes. We are forced to pay for their children’s education, the whole household’s medical care and many well concealed programs by the government. Illegal aliens are just that illegal! They are robbing the taxpayers, and they are arriving here from Asia, Europe or Central and South America.
In 1986 Immigration reform package that was a mass amnesty, which was an absolute debacle and added 6 million more legal immigrants, that has devastated the welfare entitlement program, ever since. It can be amended, but there never will be another deceiving amnesty; not broken as critics say, but a reform law meant to fail. The last amnesty to complete carried a hefty cost of 76 billion dollars and what we got was farm laborers, disappearing from picking crops and stealing jobs from previous decades of legal immigrants. Every year millions enter America legally through visa programs, rife with fraud and deception. It’s almost like legal smuggling, as through the years of six stealth amnesties have been implicated, without the public’s knowledge.
While Americans are in home foreclosure, vehicles reprocessed and unable to pay their bills, there are an estimated 8 million gainfully employed. Illegal aliens are still pouring across the border or flying from other nations and are not being tracked as the Mexican Immigration does? The Third Party will stem this illegal economic occupation once and for all. The Tea Party will not vote for any new Amnesties, better labeled as Immigration Reform. The People’s power is omnipotent, but we must stand together against many entities who are only interested in profit and exploitation. We can join NumbersUSA and band together by demanding a–MANDATORY E-VERIFY–nationwide, from our federal, State representatives or call Senate—202-224–3121/ House—202-225–3121.
Attn: Stand with Arizona State senator Peirce as the critics of his illegal alien laws are trying to recall him. Not only has Sen. Pierce brought to the attention of the astronomical costs that is causing massive deficits in Arizona, but nationwide.
I’m sure Libertarians are stoked that immigrant are wrecking the welfare state and ensuring its demise to a point where the only viable solution is for private markets to emerge.
The only viable solution is private markets.
Welfare states are inherently self-destructive and dehumanizing. It’s just a matter of time before they go into meltdown and the catalyst for this destruction can come from many different sources.
nate-m,
I apologize…I forgot to refresh my browser before I submitted my reply… Had I seen your reply-I would have never posted.
Your comment is much more concise and well stated.
I meant as in “deemed viable” to those who wouldn’t automatically presume the free market to be the solution.
Makes sense.
Gil,
You bring up an observation that I have had for a longtime. I know many libertarians believe that the way to destroy the state is to avoid it with the belief that it will simply fade away from non-use.
States don’t fade away- they grow and grow until they implode, collapse, and cease to exist.
Therefore, in many ways, those receiving government subsidies are dong more to advance the libertarian agenda than…libertarians.
Furthermore, how can we condemn someone for being smart enough to take what’s given to them freely?
Brittanicus,
If I am wrong, I apologize but your diatribe looks like you cut and pasted propaganda from an anti-immigration site.
I could careless about copyrights, but I believe the integrity of the mises.org blog demands that people who post make an effort to express their views using their own words. 99.99% of the people who post on this site do so…
If you are incapable of articulating your own ideas or the ideas of others, using your own words, then you should not comment here.
By the way…
What right does anyone have in telling me who I can and can’t hire?
“What right does anyone have in telling me who I can and can’t hire?”
Because when you bring in your restive, low IQ workforce and insist that nobody can discriminate against them under Title VII, and they have to have equal access to credit under the FHA and FCRA, and they get to use the public roads, the public schools, public sewers, public goodies under AFDC, a public defender in case they honor-kill their daughter, etc., then the public gets a say in whom you decide to inflict on them.
Fly them to your place on your private jet and house them in barracks on your own land, and you may have a point. Of course, people take up space and generate waste, so you will need to check with your neighbors about such things as increased garbage pick up, additional sewer taps, water usage, runoff, communicable diseases, criminal recidivism, etc.
See how all this works? You don’t have a “right” just to hire someone and truck them in because you feel like it.
The Anti-Gnostic,
Problem:
The American government subsidizes large aspects of our society and immigrants might make use of these subsidizes…
Observation:
It is really an ass backwards way of looking at the problem.
It’s like blaming my dog for being fat because it eats. My dog isn’t fat because it eats…my dog is fat because I feed it.
It’s the same with people. I can’t blame people for taking advantage of subsidies that are provided to them…I can only blame my government.
So it’s not really immigrants (or people in general) that are the problem…it is government.
Solution:
End welfare (and any other gov’t subsidies)-problem solved.
Conclusion:
It is interesting how many anti-immigration supporters fail to overlook the obvious. The contradiction is baffling. (I want less gov’t but more gov’t to fight illegal immigration.) This leads me to believe the issue has less to do with economics and more to do (I’ll put it nicely) with xenophobia and ethnocentrism.
Dagny,
End welfare and the problem will indeed be solved: if your neighbors don’t want Somalians or Liberians in their midst, you don’t get to sue them under Title VII to force them to rent or sell to people they don’t want in their community.
Ethnocentrism is a rational human response to people of different ancestry. Where do you think distinctive ethnicity comes from?
law reflects the people. haiti has voodoo, it works for them. the west has a different legal tradition, one that has provided nourishment for enormous entrepreneurial achievements. change the people and the law changes too.
http://www.solargeneral.com/library/unique-western-culture.pdf
here’s the counterpoint to the videos offered:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Md0xxK7m0Y&feature=player_embedded
man is not homo oeconomicus.
Not sure I agree entirely, but I have to say that I find the commentary insightful.
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