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	<title>Comments on: First Alleged &#8220;Copyright&#8221; Dispute: 560 AD, Celtic Ireland; Battle Ensues; 3000 people die</title>
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	<link>http://archive.mises.org/16871/first-copyright-dispute-560-ad-celtic-ireland-battle-ensues-3000-people-die/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Tucker</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/16871/first-copyright-dispute-560-ad-celtic-ireland-battle-ensues-3000-people-die/comment-page-1/#comment-779000</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Tucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2011 17:18:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=16871#comment-779000</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Right. I&#039;ve long suspected that this case -- very deep in a history about which we know next to nothing -- keeps being trotted out to make copyright disputes seem like a normal part of the human experience. That is emphatically not true. They are a unique feature of life under the ghastly nation state, purely a product of positive legislation by the modern state.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right. I&#8217;ve long suspected that this case &#8212; very deep in a history about which we know next to nothing &#8212; keeps being trotted out to make copyright disputes seem like a normal part of the human experience. That is emphatically not true. They are a unique feature of life under the ghastly nation state, purely a product of positive legislation by the modern state.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephan Kinsella</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/16871/first-copyright-dispute-560-ad-celtic-ireland-battle-ensues-3000-people-die/comment-page-1/#comment-778957</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephan Kinsella</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2011 15:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=16871#comment-778957</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jeff, your view seems to be supported by Corrigan&#039;s account. Consider:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Finnian claimed ownership of the copy of the book based on what he believed to be legal precedent and on the moral grounds that a visitor and a friend, to whom he had extended an open welcome and hospitality, had betrayed him by secretly copying his property. He was also concerned that, if the book was to be copied and widely distributed, this had to be done carefully and though appropriate channels and procedures. He was concerned to maintain the integrity of the manuscript and ensure there were no errors introduced through hasty copying processes, the like of which Colmcille had secretly engaged in. Colmcille, by that time, had something of a manuscript production line operating at his monastery at Durrow, a group of monks transcribing manuscripts in order that these might be made widely available. It’s interesting to speculate on what Finnian’s views would have been about this activity and the quality of the work thus produced. Perhaps he felt any copying of his precious copy of the Vulgate should be done at Durrow?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The comments about the &quot;hospitality&quot; does indicate at least some resources were provided to Colmcille, as does the suggestion that perhaps Finnian would have preferred Colmcille to use his own transcribing operation at Durrow instead of at Finnian&#039;s monastery (perhaps so that he would not be using Finnian&#039;s resources). The concern Finnian had about quality control also supports your contention that &quot;no head of a monastery would try to restrict the distribution of the Word of God&quot;, and that Finnian&#039;s concern was not about anything like &quot;copyright&quot; (and as I noted, Finnian was not the author of the text anyway, so it really does appear to have almost nothing to do with copyright).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff, your view seems to be supported by Corrigan&#8217;s account. Consider:</p>
<blockquote><p>Finnian claimed ownership of the copy of the book based on what he believed to be legal precedent and on the moral grounds that a visitor and a friend, to whom he had extended an open welcome and hospitality, had betrayed him by secretly copying his property. He was also concerned that, if the book was to be copied and widely distributed, this had to be done carefully and though appropriate channels and procedures. He was concerned to maintain the integrity of the manuscript and ensure there were no errors introduced through hasty copying processes, the like of which Colmcille had secretly engaged in. Colmcille, by that time, had something of a manuscript production line operating at his monastery at Durrow, a group of monks transcribing manuscripts in order that these might be made widely available. It’s interesting to speculate on what Finnian’s views would have been about this activity and the quality of the work thus produced. Perhaps he felt any copying of his precious copy of the Vulgate should be done at Durrow?</p></blockquote>
<p>The comments about the &#8220;hospitality&#8221; does indicate at least some resources were provided to Colmcille, as does the suggestion that perhaps Finnian would have preferred Colmcille to use his own transcribing operation at Durrow instead of at Finnian&#8217;s monastery (perhaps so that he would not be using Finnian&#8217;s resources). The concern Finnian had about quality control also supports your contention that &#8220;no head of a monastery would try to restrict the distribution of the Word of God&#8221;, and that Finnian&#8217;s concern was not about anything like &#8220;copyright&#8221; (and as I noted, Finnian was not the author of the text anyway, so it really does appear to have almost nothing to do with copyright).</p>
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		<title>By: Jeffrey Tucker</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/16871/first-copyright-dispute-560-ad-celtic-ireland-battle-ensues-3000-people-die/comment-page-1/#comment-778936</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffrey Tucker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 May 2011 13:57:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=16871#comment-778936</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It seems clear to me that this dispute was not about copyright. There was no notion back then of modern copyright principles, especially not in the Christian world, which was devoted to spreading ideas above all else (no Bible was copyright protected in the modern sense until the 20th century). Books were not just scarce; they were ridiculous in short supply. The King&#039;s statement that every book is a child is wholly correct. You could not copy one without having the other nearby - along with using massive amounts of scarce ink and labor, and being a guest in someone else&#039;s property and eating their food and enjoying the security of the monastery along the way. 

This dispute thus centered on an extremely important principle of property rights. The production of one Psalter would take whole teams years, and use pounds of extremely precious vellum (the Christians would not use papyrus because these manuscripts depreciated quickly), which itself was nearly priceless (it is made by flattening sheep skin and stretching and shaving it and drying it, and this took an entire season; one book used many many animals). 

It seems clear, then, that the superior general of the order was only interested in a proper allocation of monastic resources, and he had every reason to demand the property back. St. Columba was essentially stealing, and then using some far-flung doctrine to justify it. It would be another matter if copying were only about a a photocopy machine or taking a PDF file, but that is not what we are talking about. 

It strikes me as mis-reading to render this as a story about copyright. This is reading backwards in time modern nation-state inventions. This was a story about property and contract. This seems very obvious to me since no head of a monastery would try to restrict the distribution of the Word of God; the vast majority of efforts by the monastery were devoted precisely to copying and preserving and distribution manuscripts. There was no sense of having some proprietary ownership over the ideas at all. But the vellum, ink, machinery, labor time, and hence the physical results of the scribing operation? Heck yeah. 

Essentially, this would be the modern equivalent of a cousin you invited for dinner who looted your silverware. When caught, he drums up some excuse about how silver belongs to the whole of humanity.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems clear to me that this dispute was not about copyright. There was no notion back then of modern copyright principles, especially not in the Christian world, which was devoted to spreading ideas above all else (no Bible was copyright protected in the modern sense until the 20th century). Books were not just scarce; they were ridiculous in short supply. The King&#8217;s statement that every book is a child is wholly correct. You could not copy one without having the other nearby &#8211; along with using massive amounts of scarce ink and labor, and being a guest in someone else&#8217;s property and eating their food and enjoying the security of the monastery along the way. </p>
<p>This dispute thus centered on an extremely important principle of property rights. The production of one Psalter would take whole teams years, and use pounds of extremely precious vellum (the Christians would not use papyrus because these manuscripts depreciated quickly), which itself was nearly priceless (it is made by flattening sheep skin and stretching and shaving it and drying it, and this took an entire season; one book used many many animals). </p>
<p>It seems clear, then, that the superior general of the order was only interested in a proper allocation of monastic resources, and he had every reason to demand the property back. St. Columba was essentially stealing, and then using some far-flung doctrine to justify it. It would be another matter if copying were only about a a photocopy machine or taking a PDF file, but that is not what we are talking about. </p>
<p>It strikes me as mis-reading to render this as a story about copyright. This is reading backwards in time modern nation-state inventions. This was a story about property and contract. This seems very obvious to me since no head of a monastery would try to restrict the distribution of the Word of God; the vast majority of efforts by the monastery were devoted precisely to copying and preserving and distribution manuscripts. There was no sense of having some proprietary ownership over the ideas at all. But the vellum, ink, machinery, labor time, and hence the physical results of the scribing operation? Heck yeah. </p>
<p>Essentially, this would be the modern equivalent of a cousin you invited for dinner who looted your silverware. When caught, he drums up some excuse about how silver belongs to the whole of humanity.</p>
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