Foam could be anything. I don’t know specifically the chemical/physical makeup of the foam. It is probably related to phosphates in some way because all life is related to the elements Hydrogen, Oxygen, Carbon, Phosphorus, Nitrogen, Sodium and Potassium. This is why Nitrogen Phosphorus and Potassium are in fertilizer. The presence of these compounds in the waterways is a problem when they are too high. Run-off from the land from the removal of trees and plants, and the replacement of those plants with streets and storm drains is the primary cause of larger quantities of nutrients in the waterways. Add to this the application of commercial fertilizers to farm land and you have the majority reason for excessive algae blooms and possibly foam.

As for the TSP for your wash, It depends upon the concentration. I wouldn’t use more than a tablespoon of powder or a shot glass of liquid at any time. The stuff is effective. Supplement it with Borax, or simple soap if you need more clean.

ANYONE, what amount or ratio of TSP would one need for laundry? One Tbsp per load? One part T.S.P. to four parts detergent?

Thank you for proving my point. Have a nice life.

Oh, yay, it doesn’t harm plants. Again, you ignore the point, you sidestep the issue, and you just plain don’t listen. IT’S POISONOUS TO ANIMALS. What about that do you not get? Are you just acting stupid or feigning ignorance? Keep spouting irrelevant BS enough until the problems go away?

“What is in the new government mandated clean water act compliant magic formulas in the new products?”

It’s not new. Geez, c’mon already, you don’t even know what the clean water act is? You can’t POISON the water supply, what part about that do you not get?

“What is the new mandated composition of the new product?”

No mandated composition, just that it cannot contain a substance that will lead to poison the water supply.

“What regulation in what act determined what that will be?”

YOU JUST SAID IT. We’re talking about it, how many times do I have to say it? It’s the clean water act. You really obviously have no clue at anything remotely concerning the process of the water supply, seriously, look it up.

“What studies were conducted by the EPA to show these chemicals are safe for you and me and the Environment?”

You don’t really care. Why? Because you are trying to fight for a substance that’s been proven by such studies to be poisonous, and potentially environmentally hazardous. You keep spouting they aren’t evidence, that they aren’t true, so why suddenly the change of heart? Why suddenly do you care what the studies say? You don’t. What BS.

“Why does the FDA require TSP to be used, industrially, to wash chicken and food handling equipment? Doesn’t the FDA KNOW what you told us all so many times is true?”

What are you repeating this BS when you didn’t even comment on what I said about it before? What are you, a child? Stop plugging your ears screaming la la la, and read what is put down instead of replying with the exact same BS that’s already been refuted. They don’t dump it into the water supply, it’s a completely different issue. For that matter, the FDA does NOT require TSP itself to be used industrially, you’re making BS up and just baldfaced lying. Enough is enough. I would point you to studies on it, but as we already mentioned, you don’t actually read studies unless they already agree with what you want them to.

“Does the FDA know that they are working against the EPA and the CLEAN WATER ACT that I apparently depend upon to get through my day?”

No, they aren’t. You’ve even admitted that TSP is a poison and has an effect on the environment (you just think that’s a moot point). They banned it, specifically for that reason, and quite frankly, that’s exactly how it’s supposed to go. You’re just crying about it because now you can’t have your garbage stuff sparkly.

“Are the new formulas poisonous? Yes. Says so on the package. (Better get that poison out of there too or we’re all gonna die!)”

You know the funny thing? These “compounds” and “unknown” chemicals have been around for hundreds of years and are also naturally occurring. But of course, that only matters when it is your argument doesn’t it? And you really can’t google for a study? Thousands of results. But then again, tons of them often compare the impact of tsp vs zeolites, and unanimously zeolites win hands down, so again, it’s not like you’ll listen to any study, because there are none that agree with you. Oh, and no, zeolites are not poisonous, but they attract heavy metals that are, and is biodegradable when it is exposed to water.

Not that you really care, again, after all, since TSP is poisonous but you’ll use it anyway. Your argument defeats itself.

We know what TSP is. Na3Po4. It is a phosphate that the environment, plants in particular, can process.

What is in the new government mandated clean water act compliant magic formulas in the new products? What is it GMNightmare? Let’s start there.

What is the new mandated composition of the new product?
What regulation in what act determined what that will be?
What studies were conducted by the EPA to show these chemicals are safe for you and me and the Environment?
Why does the FDA require TSP to be used, industrially, to wash chicken and food handling equipment? Doesn’t the FDA KNOW what you told us all so many times is true?
Does the FDA know that they are working against the EPA and the CLEAN WATER ACT that I apparently depend upon to get through my day?

Are the new formulas poisonous? Yes. Says so on the package. (Better get that poison out of there too or we’re all gonna die!)

So what exactly IS your point? That consumers are stupid sheeple and the government regulations are saving the world from its own stupidity? That without all these wonderful and amazing Acts of Congress we would all be doubled up in pain from poisoning? Or is it that without some these stupendous feats of effort to define and redefine our world we would all go to hell in hand basket?

“But what is not admitted by GMNightmare is that these zones are naturally occurring and that Phosphates and Nitrates”

For the fourth time, I’m NOT TALKING ABOUT THE ZONES. Your stubbornly refusing to even acknowledge that FACT.

“Phosphates and Nitrates, naturally sourced, have been creating this condition for millions of years.”

Just because it happens naturally doesn’t mean it can happen industrially with consumer use. There is a huge difference, stop acting like there is none.

For that matter, I’ve told you now three times, we aren’t talking about phosphates and nitrates, we are talking SPECIFICALLY about TSP. AND THAT ALONE. Stop making generalizations to try and support your argument. It is completely irrelevant what other phosphates do, because we aren’t talking about other phosphates. What do you not get about that? I know why you do it too… so you can make up arguments like phosphate poisoning doesn’t exist, when the reality is that things like trisodium phosphate poisoning are absolutely real.

“new formulations with unknown effects on both health and waterways”

For the fourth time, you are wrong. They are not UNKNOWN, what part of that do you not get? These are not mysterious chemicals that we know nothing about. Zeolites are not poisonous, and they are safe for the environment… VS WE KNOW TSP IS POISONOUS AND UNSAFE FOR THE ENVIRONMENT. You keep saying unknown, but that’s a lie every single time. Every time. Especially after I’ve told you that several times already.

“GMNightmare claims the divine infallibility of the government regulators to protect us from the dangers.”

No, as you haven’t got it by now… what is this, the sixth? It protects me from selfish greedy people like you, who would trade spotless dishes (not in any way cleaner) for clean water. I’ve said this several, several times, where do your rights end and mine begin? And furthermore, THE CLEAN WATER ACT. You consistently fail to cover the fact that you depend upon that for your survival…

Which was the point. YOU RELY UPON things like the clean water act on a daily basis. It was against your little rant on how you should be free to do whatever you want with no consideration to anybody else… well no, as I said, this isn’t an anarchy, anarchy doesn’t work, and your just lying anyways. You want to force everyone else to obey say, the clean water act, you just don’t want to yourself.

The moment your water comes dirty and polluted and suddenly you would be up in arms. Hypocrite is the term for it. You are nothing but a big hypocrite.

“Phosphate got banned from household products ONLY”

ERRRRR. See, you’re not listening! The clean water act applies TO ALL. What is the ban targeting? BUSINESSES! They aren’t allowed to put it in their detergents because it’s use leads directly to a water source! Industries have absolutely tons of regulations, far more strict than any you will ever face.

“GMNightmare attached himself to one phosphate and one source of phosphate and one Gulf dead zone.”

Let’s repeat… I never said anything about dead ones, or the Gulf. It was not in my original argument. It’s not a part of my argument. What do you not get about that? Can’t conceptualize what I’m saying can you?

“We traded lower energy use for more mercury in our landfills.”

Because stupid consumers can’t recycle things. It’s under the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act (RCRA) Universal Waste Rule (UWR) and Subtitle C hazardous waste regulations, and in the next few years it will be illegal to throw away such products. This includes pretty much all electronics.

You missed the point entirely. What impact does the new formula have? What is it doing to our water and our food when we eat it? We were eating some TSP before with no ill effects. And the TSP was in the ecosystem before we started using more of it. TSP is only one phosphate out of hundreds that we use.

Perspective is everything in environmentalism, not just hammering at one perceived threat and forming legislation.

A case in point is the 100yrs of firefighting in the National Forests. It was perceived, that the fires were a destruction of the ecosystem and so were legislated protection. The results of this were devastating to the ecosystem. Less fires for years led to much greater fires later, and the lack of periodic fire was killing the cycle of re-germination. The trees had evolved to sustain, and then utilize the fires that were a natural part of their life cycle.

Picking one substance or viewpoint and using it to justify government action is not environmentalism. The whole system must be followed and understood. We do have an impact on it. But banning one phosphate from consumer use is a red herring. Phosphates are the basic building blocks of proteins. They are everywhere there is life. TSP is only one simple form, and the environment does deal with it. That happens in the dead zones. Those zones are the source of the hydrocarbons that pile up to produce the fossil fuels that are there under the ocean floor.

Environmentalism isn’t a stand and a law. It is the coming to grips with the entire life cycle and adjusting the way we act within it. The removal of TSP only removes a substance the environment already knows what to do with, with new man-made substances and compounds that the biosphere does not know how to deal with. That is the point.

Jeffery was complaining in his article about the cleanliness. This is a significant point when considering human health. We eat that film when we eat our dinner. We didn’t have a film before, and what little there was, was a phosphate that our bodies can deal with in minute quantities. TSP is the best cleaner there is for food and food handling equipment. It contributes to the algae blooms because the algae can eat it! The algae CAN’T eat ZEOLITE!!!

The dead zones are the last line in the nitrate/phosphate cycle. Those chemicals form when plant matter decays. That is why industrial pig farms and cattle farms produce so much of it. I said PRODUCE. The animals themselves, and you and me, are pooping and peeing Nitrates and Phosphates every day of our lives.

You MUST look at the whole picture to understand the environment.

Study Biodynamics. Study Organic and sustainable agriculture. Then you may begin to understand why this issue is so damned important. The TSP was a known and relatively benign factor in the big picture surrounding the dead zones and human health. The new replacements are not known to the environment or scientific studies of human health or microbiological health. TSP is known to be NON TOXIC to plants. Yes, if YOU eat enough plant food, it will kill YOU, but not the plants.

I was at a bio-dynamic winery yesterday, and all of their cleaning products go into their own holding ponds. The phosphates are converted by the algae in those ponds, and then, the water is recycled back to the vineyards and vegetable gardens. TSP is not a problem there. They may even do what I do with my pond, and occasionally dredge the bottom and recycle the mud back into the compost. They compost everything, like I do. It never leaves the property! This is an example of rational environmentalism.

They use NO herbicides, NO pesticides, and NO commercial fertilizers. They plant companion plant areas that sustain “good” insects instead. They have Bat houses and Owl Houses and Bird houses scattered all around the property. Sheep are allowed to graze between the rows and are the primary weeders of the vineyard. This is what is needed. Looking at the whole picture, not just one piece and one fact.

People like you and GMNightmare are the kind of people who are dangerous to environmentalism. You think that just by taking a stand against mankind and for the environment is all that is needed to be right. Thoughtless perversion of an otherwise righteous and necessary study. You both should be ashamed of yourselves!

Be my guest. GMNightmare never did anything but make personal attacks and regurgitate the fear mongering and insistence on prohibition. That’s not an argument, it’s an insistence on the truth of a single point, namely “TSP is poisonous and it’s destroying the planet.” and then concludes with, “The government is my saviour.” (I’m paraphrasing).
I agree that TSP, a phosphate, is a contributing factor to what are known as “dead zones” just outside the mouths of major waterways around the world. This is a fact. But what is not admitted by GMNightmare is that these zones are naturally occurring and that Phosphates and Nitrates, naturally sourced, have been creating this condition for millions of years.

The dead zones are thought to be expanding in recent decades because of what is known about them now. What is known is that Nitrates and Phosphates cause the blooms and human activity has increased the load of Nitrates and Phosphates in these ways:
1 – By the action of development around the waterways, causing the water run off to reach the waterway before the plants and soil can take the nutrients up.
2 – By the direct application of larger amounts of the nutrients on the surface of large industrial farms.
3 – Household use, which has two factors:
3a – Yard application of fertilizers (Potassium, Nitrates, and Phosphates)
3b – Household cleaners.

The household cleaners are the only source that passes through water treatment of some kind prior to entering the waterway! It’s the only “threat” that is not a significant threat!

Furthermore, the replacement chemicals are new formulations with unknown effects on both health and waterways. They leave residue that is visible and therefore finding its way into our food right from our own dishes and plates. What is it and what does it do?

GMNightmare claims the divine infallibility of the government regulators to protect us from the dangers. How nice of them to do that, since it has never been done without a lobbyist from a well-heeled corporation backing the play. Phosphate got banned from household products ONLY. Why ban it by the cap-full, when it could have been banned by the ton? What did that protect?

It protected the corporations much more than it protected our health or well-being of you and me and the waterways. New patented compounds, and new profits for Wall Street to trade.

GMNightmare attached himself to one phosphate and one source of phosphate and one Gulf dead zone.

The dead zones are expanding. True. But the solution is not to be found in the household. It is to be found in the industrial complex that birthed the move away from natural fertilizers and biodynamic and organic growing to factory farms and aircraft delivered fertilizers.

I would like to know what GMNightmare thinks of the new lightbulbs? We traded lower energy use for more mercury in our landfills. I hate this! There is was no clear warning from our great overseers about that now was there? And now mercury is being added to our run off where it wasn’t a problem before. Not only do we have to contend with mercury, there are PHOSPHATES inside those fluorescent bulbs with the mercury! That’s what makes the light. Before it was tungsten. Now it’s mercury vapor and phosphates!

So go ahead aaron, make my day.

By opposing genetically modified organisms; which are highly regulated and screened by the FDA and USDA before being allowed to be commercially produced; GMnightmare garners instant fail by saying only his distrust of the federales is rational while anyone else’s distrust is picayune.

Worse than his unintentional hypocrisy and inability to perform risk assessments without falling into alarmist diatribes, he’s almost as pompous as I can get.

I did the same thing… bought a 4 lb box of TSP at the local Lowe’s for about $11, brought it home to try out. I’ve been using a homemade mix of borax and washing soda for dishwashing detergent for at least a year with the same results (however, my dishes were cloudy using the purchased soap as well, so can’t blame it on the homemade mix). I only added 1/2 tsp. TSP to my rounded tsp of homemade mixture (I thought a tablespoon sounded like too much) and have been amazed at the results after only two dishwasher loads… much cleaner, no filmy residue… especially noticable on flatware, glassware and plastic measuring spoons.

I also use a homemade laundry soap and am planning to try it out as well. Again, I’m thinking 1/4 cup is too much since I only need about a rounded tablespoon of my soap mixture for the load currently. I’m going to start with a scant tablespoon of TSP added to my laundry and see how it works, adjusting as I see the results.

Just add ashes to water and stir, then let it settle. That’s “precipitation”! The non solubles fall to the bottom…

I’m assuming high heats or the difference in formulation between dishwashing soap and dishwashing detergent had to have played a factor. The handwashed plasticware was nice and clean and as translucent when new; so were the ones washed with neutered detergent – detergent + TSP just wasn’t working the way I hoped. My last bit of mad scientist approach for that will be to use TSP without detergent in the washer.

If that pwns my plasticware yet again, I still own some superlative grill cleaner and have experiments with laundry and the deck to commence.

Thanks, also, for the info on wood ash. We have enough poison ivy in and around our trees that I don’t like playing with the firepit, but they definitely have a George Washington Carver appeal to them. How does one precipitate the abrasive crystals from wood ash to make a glass-safe cleaner?

Tyranny was born on that day. Central Planning and bureaucracy followed. After all, he needed brains and friends and lackeys, to come up with ideas, support, and dirty work.