My intention wasn’t to suggest that anyone reduce themselves to my meager level of production. I suggest that people that pay more than they would like in taxes reduce themselves to my meager existence, rather than squander all of the fruits of their labor on luxury homes and cars. I am much better off than many people with ten times my income for that reason.

An average family of 4, earning a combined income of $70k could put $25k/yr into savings after taxes if they live my lifestyle. Do so for 10, 20, 40 years and you would be better off than sitting around bitching about how much they could have if it weren’t for the government, whom are going nowhere soon. I don’t blame them for advocating tax abolishment, just don’t expect me to cooperate in my own demise for something that will benefit them more than I.

MAYBE private education would be more common and inexpensive after a long transitional period. MAYBE denying education to the much needed menial laborers would be more common as well. I have an emotional response when I realize the number of people that want to abolish public ed, and our history of denying education to African slaves, and later African American citizens.

As far as charity, I can agree with you somewhat. First of all, many of the people complaining about property taxes are the same people that would not allow public education to be terminated. (the Tea Partiers wanting gubmint out their Medicare and S.S.) Furthermore, the assertion that people would donate more to charity if only they were taxed less is a meaningless cliche designed to appease those of us concerned with losing the relative guarantee of social insurance (a.k.a. entitlements).

Another possibility exists. In a world without “safety nets”, charitable donations would be a more risky proposition and would possibly become less common as a result.

I had a teacher that showed up to class maybe twice a week. Two other students and myself did our work despite the barrage of wet paper towels and erasers flying through the air. In contrast, I had a very caring Recordkeeping teacher that encouraged me to stick with accounting which I currently have a degree for. I had an English teacher that quite often discussed my college plans with me after class. My biology teacher (Indiana’s teacher of the year at one point) praised me often, encouraging me to pursue an education in biology. Most, like everyone else I deal with on a daily basis, are just ordinary. I suppose that if you can tell me that nothing negative occurs in private schools, I can give you a few ex

You talk about being ok with screwing other people because you’d be screwed without their taxes. But what you’d really be screwed without is their productivity. If all the rich lowered themselves to your level of productivity and only bought 1200 sq. ft. homes we’d all have much less, and the education that was available publicly or otherwise would be awful.

What you really are doing is forcing other people to work for you. And I know you’ll say that private education does the same thing but you always have a choice on how you review the costs and benefits. You pointed out above that you don’t like private education including homeschool because it entails a cost of time. Well, then don’t educate? Count upon schools founded upon charity… after all, did you consider that perhaps because others are like yourself and are willingly paying taxes for education that in a society not founded on a monopoly of force maybe people would be willing to donate to that?

Additionally as the market expanded the costs of schooling would go down. Teaching is not that difficult at a basic level. Like most industries there is a huge scale between the excellent teachers and the normal ones, and if you think this doesn’t apply to public schools you haven’t been around much. Most of the teachers there are pretty horrible, not the least because the incentives of public schools are not aimed at pleasing their customers. And private schools are largely bound by a myriad of regulations that make them act similarly.

I have an Associate Degree in Accounting, delivering pizza for the last 17 years. I haven’t been in school since ’91. WTF am I supposed to teach my children that will be useful to them in finding meaningful employment? I at least have the benefit of community college, which is far more than others that would be home-schoolers. I am not a teacher and it would be a disservice to pretend that I am.

“And, those who are childless also pay it” …And they get no benefit from living in a relatively educated country?

Your assumption is that everyone will be educated by their parents if a formal private or public education is unavailable. You may end up paying for prolonged training periods for REALLY uneducated workers, not to mention the extra time searching for qualified applicants. How do we progress economically with a less educated population?

In the meantime, subjecting ourselves to government is a form of “self-defense”–if we appease the monster, then (sometimes) it leaves us alone.

Now, with regards to minimum wage: If I agree with my employer to sweep the floors of the shop for $3.00/hr, because I’m currently between jobs and would like to put at least a *little bit* of food on the table while looking for work, you would want to punish my employer and/or me for making this agreement? Where is the justice in that?

And with regards to “free” public education: how the heck did we come to accept the idea that we should let the government tell us what to think? Education is a duty–by convincing us that education is a “right”, we have distorted it into something ugly and harmful. Our children would be better off seeking education from places other than the State, and seeking education that most interests them, on their own.

“I am annoyed at all the “concern” expressed for the children that can’t get a good education in public schools.”

I am, too–parents should just jettison the failing system, and teach their children on their own. Of course, in certain States (often the States that are failing the most, and paying the most per child), make it as difficult as possible to teach your own children, even as they are failing to teach them themselves.

A am not bothered by anyone teaching their children about evolution and geology; neither am I bothered about anyone teaching their children about Noah, and claiming that the stratification we see today is the result of Noah’s flood. The reason this is such a controversy, though, is that public education, is, by necessity, indoctrination–and we have come to believe that it’s necessary! Thus, if I believe one thing, then I would expect it to be taught in school–but if someone believes the opposite, then that person expects it to be taught in school as well. There is no clean compromise while education remains the dictate of the State.

I *am* a product of public education–it didn’t make me a complete robot–but even as I was in school, I had a sense that something was wrong, and that the solution was home-schooling. I have since come to the conclusion that it is ultimately the family’s responsibility to teach our children–and that the most successful students are those who are home-taught, even if they remain in public or private education.

When you say that “I think the actual issue is allowing EVERYONE to clutter schools with religious trinkets vs. allowing none, and concentrating on math and crazy s*** like that instead.” you *almost* hit on the solution: let every family, every parent, and every child, decide for himself, what should be taught, and what should be learned. UNTIL we do that, we will continue to have deep controversies–even down to what “math and crazy s***” should be taught, and how it should be taught (and yes, as a mathematician, I am well aware of the controversies underlying that!).

I’m not THAT much of a statist. Just a little “free” education and minimum wage reg. I wonder if they teach this at PHC too.

– Only the Government can provide railroad and subway systems.
– Without the Federal Government’s TVA program, farmers would never had gotten electricity.
– The Great Depression was caused by Hoover’s inaction, but was fixed by Roosevelt’s actions.
– Public School is necessary to ensure an educated republic.

These are just off of the top of my head; they are also things I’ve come to learn later that are misguided at best. These are things that I would not have considered indoctrination at the time that I learned them, though.

Furthermore, to the extent that someone sent to a private school may be indoctrinated, I wouldn’t lose sleep over that, because such indoctrination is the result of parents, and perhaps children, making a choice for their own lives. Public Education, however, has a wide array of laws, from taxes to accreditation to compulsory education, that does a lot to limit these choices–and that’s the heart of government indoctrination, as well as the the cause of all these controversies.

Not the entire point, but well taken. Taking Christ out of Christmas? Many of these fights are a matter of perspective, having very little to do with Constitutionality and much more to do with practicality, equity and appropriateness.

I would like to have specific examples of indoctrination in public schools, and an explanation of why it is any different than the examples I have given above for private schools doing the same thing. I attended public schools for my whole educational career, and I don’t recall hearing anything nearly as blatant an indoctrination as above.

You truly do not realize how fortunate you are. I am very fortunate.

I supplement what they learn as often as I can. I lack confidence in my ability to teach better than a professional, and therefore defer to someone more qualified in most cases.

Considering Indiana’s 1% property tax cap, a property must be assessed and taxed at $700,000 in order to equal the yearly average per student cost of attending a private school. I don’t feel anymore sympathy for the people that do pay that much than they have for my situation.

I am annoyed at all the “concern” expressed for the children that can’t get a good education in public schools. You care about your tax bill. I understand that, and please understand that I don’t care about your tax bill anymore than you care about mine.

You are all so busy convincing each other that private education is a superior option, but people like me are where your attention should be. I vote for people that perpetuate the system you despise. I’m sorry you don’t like paying for anything public and I’m sure you are so very sorry that private education is simply out of my reach.

When government took it over.

Let’s face it: for those of us that want an alternative to public education, being forced to pay property taxes (and oh, so many other taxes) to prop up a failing institution only adds insult to injury!

The big difference between public education and private education is that in private education (at least in most State in the US, but not Australia), people take up their freedom to make the choice to take responsibility for the education of their children seriously, by ensuring they choose a school that reflects their values and their expectations of education. They pay for the exercise of that all important freedom, but they can withdraw from the contract as necessary, which keeps everyone on their toes. Lastly, I should say that many people who choose private over public education often readily make sacrifices in their lives and get second jobs in order to pay the tuition fees.

“Patriotic Goal
To encourage an understanding of American heritage, civic responsibilities, love of country, and willingness to defend it.”

“The Mission of the Department of Government is to promote practical application of biblical principles and the original intent of the founding documents of the American republic, while preparing students for lives of public service, advocacy and citizen leadership.”

When did school become such a political and religious battleground?