Thank you for bringing Mises into this. I love it when the folks here run pall mall for the cliff, and someone points out that Mises has written exactly on point, with wisdom and eloquence, and settles the matter with such clarity.

There is nothing more to be said.

Regards,

I just don’t see how you would do it different with a “Contained Govt.” Philosophy, that the fore-fathers started out with. What mechanism would stop the onslaught of Total State, in all its forms? Vigilence?. ….That many times means Revolt, IMHO. Who’s gonna be the 1st there?
Hobbesean philosophy of a State seems to me at this point, a bit lacking….?

This is off the cuff, as far as countering/meeting objections to the link you gave me, but it will do.
https://mises.org/etexts/longanarchism.pdf Of course it is not all ironed-out, but it hasn’t been allowed to either. This grasshopper is still learning. I’m not at any Zenith of knowledge, by a long shot, not even close!

Have you read “For a New Liberty” by Rothbard, (I haven’t personally), but I’m believe he goes into some of this philosophy?

I guess we will have to agree to disagree Joe. Your skepticism, of Market Sourced Law/Defense Agencies, and my openess to something besides a government monopolized, yet controlled, current system.

Thanks for the link.

Giving a Massive Federal Power, Monopoly force in the 20th century for the most part, has not resulted in more freedom for individuals, but less as a whole. It’s giving us two major bloody wars, and the resulting chaos of those conflicts have led to much more strife.

How do you know that a Private Security/Military would be worse than a State Run version that we currently have. Exactly whose interests does their actions serve. When you say National Interest, that doesn’t cut it. If home based international corp. want protection let them pay for it. Otherwise deal with it.

And you have to ask yourself, will the post WWII Lording Policy of the West to keep an equilibrium in their eyes, be more detrimental in the long run? Is it really a mechanism only serving those currently in power, and keeping competition to a minimum, going back to the Neo-Mercantillism of past Europe.

You are trusting those who you believe you can identify with as by some geographic default, believing they won’t turn on you.

It’s complicated stuff, and way more deep than I can articulate or put down on paper.

I wish you well on your quest to put the genie back in the bag, Joe. But you must know this, if you want to do this, and be successful at it, you will be stepping on very big toes, and unfortuneatly they bite back. I don’t think you want to realize the amount of vestment in the current system by folks you would call decent in a public gathering, they aren’t some terrorist that is much more easy to villafy. Thats easy.

Good luck!

When I hear your words, I think about myself some many, many years ago when I wanted to believe (like you do) that I could effect a change in government and help the cause of liberty.

But I noticed, election after election, nothing really changed. Most of the things I voted for didn’t pass and on the rare occasion someone I voted for won…they soon did the opposite of what they said during the campaign. Needless to say, the experience left me disillusioned. It is one of many reasons I evolved from a minarchist to an anarcho-libertarian.

When my thought process was similar to yours, there were three things that constantly nagged at me:

a) My voting experience (which always resulted in more government)

b) My study of history (could not find any historical precedent of a larger gov. becoming
smaller…they all get larger and larger-then implode)

c) But the most nagging was the non-aggression principle (how can I support a gov.
without violating property rights?)

It is my belief that minarchists (like yourself) are just unevolved or evolving libertarians and all (thinking) libertarians eventually become anarcho-libertarians.

You don’t have to change today (or stop voting) but you should not be so disparaging toward your anarcho-libertarian brethren.

If it makes you feel better, I still vote from time to time (for vastly different reasons) but the process always makes me feel horrible. I guess I’m a masochist…of course, being a libertarian is masochistic, and being a libertarian who votes in California…need I say more.

It’s kind of like the tragedy of the commons. They don’t want anybody else to take advantage of the fertile ground of confiscation, so they vote for confiscation too.

Do you seriously believe you “withdrew our consent”? I’m pretty sure that if you don’t vote, the election happens anyway and somebody wins. Like it or not, you are effected, right?

What exactly are you proud of again?

Are you denying that the “tea party” phenomena, whatever it is, is making some kind of difference? We’ll see if the mandate works, at least at the State Level. Hopefully, but the reality is pretty grim, at least from a vested state of the masses. How many will be willing to walk away from all govt. jobs, or a private business that rely’s on govt. lagarsee?

“And if so, is it pointing in the right or wrong direction? If right, are you pulling for it, or do you insist all is futile?”

It’s a mixed bag, with a few principles, but most not founded in true liberty. Meaning the blind trust in foreign policy, and the military industrial complex. Who really benefits from this? You can’t split this up away from the current GM’s, AGI’s, Brown & Root, Haliburton, that benefit greatly from State privilege. Stand on your own or fall. Don’t fall for the Socialistic “American Interest” gambit thats been rally cry and the foundation of justification for State Monopolized War.

“Yes Hoppe and Rothbard are interesting, and they have cleverly, in my view, attempted to put a square peg in a round hole. If their ideas were so “right”, what is your explanation for why we are not all Hoppe/Rothbardians?”

Why are we all, at least in your camp, all Jeffersonians, Washingtons, Paynes, Madisons, etc. ? How did this happen? What makes them and their vision of limited/contained govt. the only road for liberty? As far as Hoppe/Rothbard. Their work is realitively new (yes, I know its builit on folks before them)? Plus, what venue could you really get a hold of their work, say 30 years ago? I don’t know all of these answers, but much of this philosophy isn’t exactly being sold at conventional re-education camps, which much is State Run. It takes time. How many people would it take to make a difference Wildberry? At least to have a majority lock-step opinion towards liberty? I don’t know Wildbery.

“If your answer is because people are just too stupid to understand, then how do you count yourself in that statement?”

No, I don’t think they are too stupid, but trained or indoctrinated by State Run schools to accept or tolerate the encrochment of the State, with no real logic analysis to counter the BS. Hell, I was in this camp. You gotta grow and hope to attain a closer look at truth. Conservative philosophy, at least the Fox version is generally crap, with a few points of light, but its rare.

“You require a theory of superiority to explain how you can be so smart to have recognized the “truth”, while the rest of us misinformed, ignorant sloths engaged in futile windmill-tilting remain in the majority compared to the dismal numbers of “enlightened” libertarians. That is a shame, but factual nonetheless.”

If you have a problem with An-Cap philosophy Wildberry, debate the issues, convince me “Limited Govt.” Conservatism is still worth while, and prove An-Caps wrong. I’m just a grasshopper, still learning.

“I don’t buy the whole menu, but I don’t mind breaking bread with someone over a little patch of common ground.” Forgive me if my tone was condecending!

Don’t forget the butter Wildberry!

But just for clarity, I hope you don’t think I was merely referring to the presidential elections. Certainly I consider Obama the worst president perhaps we’ve ever had.

But I think the midterms, if you want to focus on the national picture, will have a significant impact. It is a minor but significant step in the right direction. That’s all. On the other hand, that is something. Do you really think electing the right president will solve all our problems?

I certainly don’t. But I am paying very careful attention. If someone can emerge from this mess and show some real leadership, which I think could happen, I will not stay on the sidelines. You will, I suppose.