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	<title>Comments on: Save the Bluefin Tuna through Property Rights</title>
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	<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/</link>
	<description>Proceeding Ever More Boldly Against Evil</description>
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		<title>By: james b. longacre</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-748861</link>
		<dc:creator>james b. longacre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 05:36:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-748861</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;I find it curious that any fisherman, solitary or industrial, would fish themselves out of a job in the first place&quot;

i dont know if worldwide tuna demand if ouptacing the birth rates of oceans of tuna or not.

the fisherman may not be shooting anything.  i dont think that tuna are a fish that can be aquacultured as well as tillapia.???]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I find it curious that any fisherman, solitary or industrial, would fish themselves out of a job in the first place&#8221;</p>
<p>i dont know if worldwide tuna demand if ouptacing the birth rates of oceans of tuna or not.</p>
<p>the fisherman may not be shooting anything.  i dont think that tuna are a fish that can be aquacultured as well as tillapia.???</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-748849</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Jan 2011 04:09:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-748849</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Regarding the japanese and high-quality fish:
Wasabi

Regarding the rest:
STFU, greg]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding the japanese and high-quality fish:<br />
Wasabi</p>
<p>Regarding the rest:<br />
STFU, greg</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Leo Hefner</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-744675</link>
		<dc:creator>Leo Hefner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Dec 2010 08:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-744675</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Great article!

http://www.BlueFinHosting.com will donate 10%* of their yearly net to help fund finding a solution to truly sustainable tuna farming.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article!</p>
<p><a href="http://www.BlueFinHosting.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.BlueFinHosting.com</a> will donate 10%* of their yearly net to help fund finding a solution to truly sustainable tuna farming.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-743585</link>
		<dc:creator>P.M.Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Dec 2010 14:48:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-743585</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That first sentence is spot on, and they were indeed ultimately owned by the king just as everywhere else in England was (since no land was ever released as an allod owned free and clear but only ever under some kind of tenure, though theoretically he could have done that).

But unfortunately the rest is absolute rubbish:-

- It wasn&#039;t administered by the local lord at all, let alone harshly, unless he happened by coincidence to be the magistrate, and even then only when someone (usually one of the other commoners) brought a violator before him - and then, he was constrained by law, custom, and the need to keep his office.

- It was &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; called the commons [sic - that&#039;s the plural; there were many commons, and each commoner only had rights on his own common] then because the common man (ie peasantry), and not the rulership, was permitted to use it for their own personal gain. Commoners got called that because each had rights on a common; the lowest of the low didn&#039;t even have that. Terms like &quot;the common man&quot; arose from that. Those rights were &lt;i&gt;property&lt;/i&gt; rights, even though they were usually inalienable.

-  It was &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; (usually) private property that was opened up for limited use by others. It was the private property of the commoners themselves (under the king, of course), but which they only owned in the restricted way their rights parcelled up. In general, the local lord had no rights on it at all; the Enclosure of the Commons was all about taking commoners&#039; property rights away for the first time, not about repossessing anything. There were exceptional cases that were a bit different where commons were more nearly normally owned, as we would understand them: &quot;Lammas Lands&quot; were parcelled out individually for the peasants to raise crops on in certain seasons, and then (typically at Lammas, hence the name) became ordinary common land for the commoners&#039; animals to graze on during the remainder of the year; and, certain commons could be grazed on by droves of cattle being driven to distant markets, at certain seasons, if the drovers paid a &quot;Thistle Rent&quot; (so called because that was about all that was left by then) to the owner of &lt;i&gt;those&lt;/i&gt; rental rights, typically a local lord unless he had sold them off - as sometimes happened to rental rights in general.

It does help to check out some of the historical material.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That first sentence is spot on, and they were indeed ultimately owned by the king just as everywhere else in England was (since no land was ever released as an allod owned free and clear but only ever under some kind of tenure, though theoretically he could have done that).</p>
<p>But unfortunately the rest is absolute rubbish:-</p>
<p>- It wasn&#8217;t administered by the local lord at all, let alone harshly, unless he happened by coincidence to be the magistrate, and even then only when someone (usually one of the other commoners) brought a violator before him &#8211; and then, he was constrained by law, custom, and the need to keep his office.</p>
<p>- It was <i>not</i> called the commons [sic - that's the plural; there were many commons, and each commoner only had rights on his own common] then because the common man (ie peasantry), and not the rulership, was permitted to use it for their own personal gain. Commoners got called that because each had rights on a common; the lowest of the low didn&#8217;t even have that. Terms like &#8220;the common man&#8221; arose from that. Those rights were <i>property</i> rights, even though they were usually inalienable.</p>
<p>-  It was <i>not</i> (usually) private property that was opened up for limited use by others. It was the private property of the commoners themselves (under the king, of course), but which they only owned in the restricted way their rights parcelled up. In general, the local lord had no rights on it at all; the Enclosure of the Commons was all about taking commoners&#8217; property rights away for the first time, not about repossessing anything. There were exceptional cases that were a bit different where commons were more nearly normally owned, as we would understand them: &#8220;Lammas Lands&#8221; were parcelled out individually for the peasants to raise crops on in certain seasons, and then (typically at Lammas, hence the name) became ordinary common land for the commoners&#8217; animals to graze on during the remainder of the year; and, certain commons could be grazed on by droves of cattle being driven to distant markets, at certain seasons, if the drovers paid a &#8220;Thistle Rent&#8221; (so called because that was about all that was left by then) to the owner of <i>those</i> rental rights, typically a local lord unless he had sold them off &#8211; as sometimes happened to rental rights in general.</p>
<p>It does help to check out some of the historical material.</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742545</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 03:02:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742545</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, Joe is liable and this behaviour would stop people from owning a lot of speices.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, Joe is liable and this behaviour would stop people from owning a lot of speices.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742542</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 03:01:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742542</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If every indigenous popoulations that the West were hunter/gatherers then settlers could indeed set up farms and prohibit them from further hunting and gathering.  It would be akin children who played in an owned forest only to return later as adults to find a shopping mall then complain as if they had some sort of ownership because they temporary used the land for a while.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If every indigenous popoulations that the West were hunter/gatherers then settlers could indeed set up farms and prohibit them from further hunting and gathering.  It would be akin children who played in an owned forest only to return later as adults to find a shopping mall then complain as if they had some sort of ownership because they temporary used the land for a while.</p>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742538</link>
		<dc:creator>P.M.Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 02:24:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742538</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have looked at these issues, particularly in relation to Aboriginal land rights here in Australia. It struck me that the true situation is much as Dave Albin supposes, with the use rights going according to tribal customs (i.e., only producing Mabo-style individual ownership of land in areas where the customs worked out that way, not everywhere the way precedents are now being claimed). That would allow people to settle land as &quot;unowned&quot;, but not to have full enjoyment of it when existing tribal uses got in the way (say, hunting over it). Rather than outright buying and selling of tribal rights - which might be entrenched according to tribal customs - it would make more sense to negotiate &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quit-rent&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;quit rents&lt;/a&gt; with payer options to renew, on a parcel by parcel basis. Those would probably be handled best by folding them into ordinary insurance payments.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have looked at these issues, particularly in relation to Aboriginal land rights here in Australia. It struck me that the true situation is much as Dave Albin supposes, with the use rights going according to tribal customs (i.e., only producing Mabo-style individual ownership of land in areas where the customs worked out that way, not everywhere the way precedents are now being claimed). That would allow people to settle land as &#8220;unowned&#8221;, but not to have full enjoyment of it when existing tribal uses got in the way (say, hunting over it). Rather than outright buying and selling of tribal rights &#8211; which might be entrenched according to tribal customs &#8211; it would make more sense to negotiate <a HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quit-rent" rel="nofollow">quit rents</a> with payer options to renew, on a parcel by parcel basis. Those would probably be handled best by folding them into ordinary insurance payments.</p>
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		<title>By: P.M.Lawrence</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742532</link>
		<dc:creator>P.M.Lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Dec 2010 01:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742532</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;
Originally, the concept of a tragedy of the commons was used to analyze a hypothetical medieval pasture, where each herder could let as many cattle graze as he wanted... The tragedy of the commons in pastureland was solved by the enclosure movement, i.e., by assigning property rights to individual parcels of land.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No, that didn&#039;t solve it. It was only a hypothetical, remember? In real life the hypothetical had already been headed off by customary restrictions on use. It only ever started to become a problem where those eroded - which could be &lt;i&gt;caused&lt;/i&gt; by the advance of the enclosure movement, taking away those customary privileges and obligations ahead of taking over the land.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Originally, the concept of a tragedy of the commons was used to analyze a hypothetical medieval pasture, where each herder could let as many cattle graze as he wanted&#8230; The tragedy of the commons in pastureland was solved by the enclosure movement, i.e., by assigning property rights to individual parcels of land.
</p></blockquote>
<p>No, that didn&#8217;t solve it. It was only a hypothetical, remember? In real life the hypothetical had already been headed off by customary restrictions on use. It only ever started to become a problem where those eroded &#8211; which could be <i>caused</i> by the advance of the enclosure movement, taking away those customary privileges and obligations ahead of taking over the land.</p>
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		<title>By: ABR</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742151</link>
		<dc:creator>ABR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Dec 2010 03:27:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If Joe owns species X, and Moe owns species Y, and X likes to eat Y, does Joe owe Moe?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Joe owns species X, and Moe owns species Y, and X likes to eat Y, does Joe owe Moe?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave Albin</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742091</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Albin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742091</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Livestock have been forced to adapt to agricultural practices - it would be the same for aquatic life, so forget about worrying about migratory patterns.  Animals are very adaptable, and owners have no incentive to force adaptation to the point that animals are harmed.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Livestock have been forced to adapt to agricultural practices &#8211; it would be the same for aquatic life, so forget about worrying about migratory patterns.  Animals are very adaptable, and owners have no incentive to force adaptation to the point that animals are harmed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave Albin</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742087</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Albin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:15:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742087</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[They should have had some sort of initial use rights that could have been bought and sold.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They should have had some sort of initial use rights that could have been bought and sold.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dave Albin</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742086</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Albin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:12:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742086</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Seasteading - just like homesteading.  Also, fishermen have some initial use rights.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seasteading &#8211; just like homesteading.  Also, fishermen have some initial use rights.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: J. Murray</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742084</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742084</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s currently not legal in any country to purchase a stretch of coastal water, set up nets, and farm bluefin tuna. Wide open ocean may prove problematic (for the time being, free markets tend to solve problems most of us can&#039;t concieve an answer for), but setting up a coastal fishery for such a purpose would quickly kill off deep ocean fishing as the coastal fisheries don&#039;t have to deal with significant fuel costs, labor costs, and time to seek out the schools, thus dramatically cutting down costs and stabilizing supply.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s currently not legal in any country to purchase a stretch of coastal water, set up nets, and farm bluefin tuna. Wide open ocean may prove problematic (for the time being, free markets tend to solve problems most of us can&#8217;t concieve an answer for), but setting up a coastal fishery for such a purpose would quickly kill off deep ocean fishing as the coastal fisheries don&#8217;t have to deal with significant fuel costs, labor costs, and time to seek out the schools, thus dramatically cutting down costs and stabilizing supply.</p>
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		<title>By: J. Murray</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742082</link>
		<dc:creator>J. Murray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 19:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742082</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s because they weren&#039;t really commons in the sense we understand them today. They were owned property of the king and administered by the local lord. The local lord administered the rules (rather harshly). It was called the commons then because the common man (ie peasantry), and not the rulership, was permitted to use it for their own personal gain. It was private property that was opened up for limited use by others.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s because they weren&#8217;t really commons in the sense we understand them today. They were owned property of the king and administered by the local lord. The local lord administered the rules (rather harshly). It was called the commons then because the common man (ie peasantry), and not the rulership, was permitted to use it for their own personal gain. It was private property that was opened up for limited use by others.</p>
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		<title>By: gene</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742031</link>
		<dc:creator>gene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 16:12:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742031</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[so now they are traveling through it &quot;every so often&quot;?

so how often do they have to travel through it over how many years to stake a claim in your mind? what exactly is &quot;someone places ownership&quot;?

feeding a dog randomly is not an embedded system dependent upon the land that feeds humans. hunter and gatherers have every right to sustain themselves with their labor as someone who plants radishes year after year in the same plot.

your train of thought could and has been used to dispossess every indigenous population on the face of the earth. 

the right to self ownership IS the right to what we produce with our labor whether we plant or harvest what the earth already provides. private property rights are built on this premise, they don&#039;t trump it.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>so now they are traveling through it &#8220;every so often&#8221;?</p>
<p>so how often do they have to travel through it over how many years to stake a claim in your mind? what exactly is &#8220;someone places ownership&#8221;?</p>
<p>feeding a dog randomly is not an embedded system dependent upon the land that feeds humans. hunter and gatherers have every right to sustain themselves with their labor as someone who plants radishes year after year in the same plot.</p>
<p>your train of thought could and has been used to dispossess every indigenous population on the face of the earth. </p>
<p>the right to self ownership IS the right to what we produce with our labor whether we plant or harvest what the earth already provides. private property rights are built on this premise, they don&#8217;t trump it.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve R.</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742015</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:34:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742015</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Privatization of a mobile resource such as fish is an absurd proposition. Implicit in owning a piece of property is an assumption that whoever owns it will take care of it. Exactly how do you take care of a mobile resource such as fish? Then there is the guaranteed emergence of that one person who has no interest in sustainability and purposely destroys the resource for their egocentric personal gain. Unfortunately; for a resource such as fish, once destroyed, there is no coming back. Privatization of public resources is an abomination.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Privatization of a mobile resource such as fish is an absurd proposition. Implicit in owning a piece of property is an assumption that whoever owns it will take care of it. Exactly how do you take care of a mobile resource such as fish? Then there is the guaranteed emergence of that one person who has no interest in sustainability and purposely destroys the resource for their egocentric personal gain. Unfortunately; for a resource such as fish, once destroyed, there is no coming back. Privatization of public resources is an abomination.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Steve R.</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-742014</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-742014</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Quite true!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Quite true!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John Doe</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-741953</link>
		<dc:creator>John Doe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 02:02:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-741953</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Funny thing about the &quot;Tragedy of the Commons&quot; is that while the Commons historically existed the Tragedy never happened.

It&#039;s all a thought experiment run wild]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Funny thing about the &#8220;Tragedy of the Commons&#8221; is that while the Commons historically existed the Tragedy never happened.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all a thought experiment run wild</p>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-741949</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:46:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-741949</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Indeed, one fisherman may want to withhold fishing to allow the fish numbers to build up but knows another fisherman without such qualms will just take the fish anyway getting the immediate profit so there&#039;s no point in abstaining.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Indeed, one fisherman may want to withhold fishing to allow the fish numbers to build up but knows another fisherman without such qualms will just take the fish anyway getting the immediate profit so there&#8217;s no point in abstaining.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Gil</title>
		<link>http://archive.mises.org/14842/save-the-bluefin-tuna-through-property-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-741948</link>
		<dc:creator>Gil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 01:42:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.mises.org/?p=14842#comment-741948</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[People don&#039;t own the land just because they travel through it every so often.  It&#039;s like a stray dog who visits workmen during lunch for free food - until someone places ownership over the dog then no one owns him however the first to claim ownership over him can then lawfully restrict other peoples&#039; interactions with the dog.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>People don&#8217;t own the land just because they travel through it every so often.  It&#8217;s like a stray dog who visits workmen during lunch for free food &#8211; until someone places ownership over the dog then no one owns him however the first to claim ownership over him can then lawfully restrict other peoples&#8217; interactions with the dog.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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